Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[Semicentennial]

I know this topic (180 vs. 181) has been highly debated on many threads and forums, but what would/could/should happen if in issue 181 the editor decided to replace the entire creative team with another team and took the book onto an entirely different story path without Wolverine, and Marvel decided to put someone else other than Wolverine in GS#1.  Would #180 still be considered a cameo or 1st appearance?

[Lazyboy]

On 1/25/2023 at 3:22 PM, serling1978 said:

Does ownership of one vs the other sway the person to see that book more favorably?

Undoubtedly, for some people. We see people pumping and trying to protect their investments all the time on the boards.

As I've previously stated in this thread (and others), I don't consider values when discussing content. However, with the topic of this thread being books that are overrated, values can't be completely ignored here.

 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/25/2023 at 8:22 PM, Semicentennial said:

I know this topic (180 vs. 181) has been highly debated on many threads and forums, but what would/could/should happen if in issue 181 the editor decided to replace the entire creative team with another team and took the book onto an entirely different story path without Wolverine, and Marvel decided to put someone else other than Wolverine in GS#1.  Would #180 still be considered a cameo or 1st appearance?

It wouldn't be considered at all!

The quality of the appearance would be unchanged. It could still never be a cameo.

[sfcityduck]

On 1/25/2023 at 1:22 PM, serling1978 said:

Man...I saw the thread title and had some thoughts on Hulk 180/181 but after reading through all 9 pages here and the arguments (started drinking heavily around page 5) I'm just curious about the ownership of these books on each side of the argument.  Does ownership of one vs the other sway the person to see that book more favorably?  Maybe not conciously. It can be debated to the end of time, but to me just owning all 3 books is the way to go . I'm a Hulk collector so I have them all as part of my Hulk run so if 180 becomes the more desirable/collectable/valuable/insert-other-words-here-able book then I'm ok with that.

I've got all three, GSX1 and 94.  My favorite of those?: GSX1.  

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:20 PM, sfcityduck said:

I've got all three, GSX1 and 94.  My favorite of those?: GSX1.  

It easily has the best story of the five. I literally ruined my copy of Special Edition X-Men #1 when I was a kid reading it over and over.

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by trademarkcomics
Added pic

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/25/2023 at 8:13 PM, Lazyboy said:

The quality of the appearance would be unchanged. It could still never be a cameo.

Man, it's been years since I read a solid cameo/1st appearance debate on Wolverine. I see CGC's definition is "1st appearance of Wolverine in cameo" to cover both angles. Has there been a solid definition outlined to establish whether it's one or the other in the past 10 years?

I'm in the 'cameo' corner

[Gonzimodo]

To me, Wolverine's first appearance is Hulk 180, since that's where he actually appeared first, in-story.    It doesn't make it the more desirable book for me, though, simply because his appearance in 180 is really just a last-page tease, with the first real, full story being in Hulk 181.  Serialized comic storytelling often has a new character appear on the last page as the lead-in to the first "full" story/appearance in the next issue.  I just wish the powers that be and collecting community would be more consistent with calling one or the other the "first appearance."  (Which, again, doesn't necessarily make the book with that last page introduction more desirable than the next issue.)

(Yes, I realize that I've really added nothing to the conversation. )

[Gonzimodo]

To me, it's the same as the War Machine armor's first appearance.

Technically, it's the last page of Iron Man 281, but Iron Man 282 gets all the love (and higher sale price) because the armor is featured on the cover and is its first full story issue.

I'm sure there are dozens of similar examples.  (Taskmaster immediately comes to mind.)

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/26/2023 at 10:31 AM, Gonzimodo said:

To me, Wolverine's first appearance is Hulk 180, since that's where he actually appeared first, in-story.    It doesn't make it the more desirable book for me, though, simply because his appearance in 180 is really just a last-page tease, with the first real, full story being in Hulk 181.  Serialized comic storytelling often has a new character appear on the last page as the lead-in to the first "full" story/appearance in the next issue.  I just wish the powers that be and collecting community would be more consistent with calling one or the other the "first appearance."  (Which, again, doesn't necessarily make the book with that last page introduction more desirable than the next issue.)

(Yes, I realize that I've really added nothing to the conversation. )

I guess in the years I haven't engaged in the conversation about that - I would have thought someone would collect all the "first appearances" and match the story/panel criteria against the "cameos". I don't think allowing Overstreet or CGC to define this particular book is the way to go - if you created a schema based on the styles of other first appearance/cameos and distilled a general rule from it, that could go a long way into settling the argument one way or the other.

The Chicago Manual of Style is what writers use as a "rulebook" to writing (I've actually been taken to task on typesetting a book that did not adhere to the Manual by a publisher) - I don't think that its outlandish to think a similar structure couldn't be implemented to reduce the gray area of all the first appearance stuff.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/26/2023 at 12:31 PM, Gonzimodo said:

(Yes, I realize that I've really added nothing to the conversation. )

Always appreciated!

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/26/2023 at 12:35 PM, Gonzimodo said:

To me, it's the same as the War Machine armor's first appearance.

Technically, it's the last page of Iron Man 281, but Iron Man 282 gets all the love (and higher sale price) because the armor is featured on the cover and is its first full story issue.

I'm sure there are dozens of similar examples.  (Taskmaster immediately comes to mind.)

I was about to mention Avengers 195

 

[D2]

Man Oh Man!

Well… Here is my  

 

The Wolverine 180 & 181 Debate:

The Incredible Hulk 181 is: The First Full Appearance of Wolverine. 

I have read these issues.

If you were to recommend to a new reader, either then or now, to get a full experience of the character, you would (should) recommend 181. Now if you recommended 180 to them, you would upset them. There is no story and no structure with the character whatsoever. 
 

A full appearance involves a character within the story, not outside of it, coming in.

It’s also the first cover appearance of the character for added measure…

It’s the same debate I always have with The Dark Phoenix.

X-Men 135 is the first full appearance of The Dark Phoenix.

134 has the intro, sure… of the character, much like Wolverine, but if a new reader asked for me to recommend their first experience to that character, I’d be recommending X-Men 135 (H181).

Obviously 134 (H180) are integral books for story continuity.

 

 

 

[Axelrod]

Off topic, but what are the books with very brief character appearances, akin to single page/panel cameos, that are also the more valuable book (far as the market is concerned) as compared to the book with what we might call a "full" appearance where the character is more featured? 

That Jimmy Olsen book with Darkseid on the TV monitor?  

Other examples?

I guess Secret Wars #8 kind of falls into that category, too?    

[D2]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:27 PM, Axelrod said:

Off topic, but what are the books with very brief character appearances, akin to single page/panel cameos, that are also the more valuable book (far as the market is concerned) as compared to the book with what we might call a "full" appearance where the character is more featured? 

That Jimmy Olsen book with Darkseid on the TV monitor?  

Other examples?

I guess Secret Wars #8 kind of falls into that category, too?    

It's a good question.

So, to answer your question, X-Men 134/135, the first full appearance of The Dark Phoenix is considered to be 134, and based on market pricing, 134 in a 9.8 is $770, $750, $800 (2021, 2022, and 90 day averages), whereas 135 is $500, $570, $475.

But if you actually read the comic books, it is very clear that the intro and execution of the character is nearly identical in presentation to Wolverine. Go figure...

[trademarkcomics]

 

On 1/26/2023 at 10:27 AM, Axelrod said:

Off topic, but what are the books with very brief character appearances, akin to single page/panel cameos, that are also the more valuable book (far as the market is concerned) as compared to the book with what we might call a "full" appearance where the character is more featured? 

That Jimmy Olsen book with Darkseid on the TV monitor?  

Other examples?

I guess Secret Wars #8 kind of falls into that category, too?    

Well since we like to say a character like Quasar didn't first appear until Hulk #234, even though all he did was have a Hulk #182-like cameo at the beginning, change his name and fly off(after many adventures as Marvel Boy/Man) I would say a good example of what you suggest would be Amazing Spider-Man #238 vs #239. Yes, there is an awesome cover with his face in shadow and some shadowy figure finding Green Goblin's equipment and using some of it during the story but he does not actually suit up or call himself the Hobgoblin until the very end of the book. Yet #239 contains his first "full" appearance and battle with Spidey and is worth a fraction of #238. Another would be Jim Rhodes who had a very tiny cameo in Iron Man #118 and doesn't make a true full appearance until #121 and is on the cover of #125. Yet, most consider the first appearance of him  as #118(CGC doesn't even call it a "cameo"). 

Edited January 26, 2023 by trademarkcomics

[D2]

Here's another one... The First Appearance of Old Man Logan...

 

Forget this book, or even the cover! which clearly states the obvious:

 

No no! No! 

The first appearance, is apparently in Fantastic Four 558... blink and you'll miss him:

[davidpg]

On 1/24/2023 at 11:23 AM, Gatsby77 said:

 

And as someone who once owned - and read - X-Men 94-304, virtually the only ones I care about are 94-143.

 

It's been discussed here before, and I'd say 94-175.  176 is well noted as the beginning of the downfall.

[seanlinc]

I've always considered H181 as wolverines first full appearance and thus the more desirable book. But I will say with H180 for a 1 pane cameo atleast it's a proper introduction.

[Kripsys99]

[Kripsys99]