Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[trademarkcomics]

Here is my list of the most overrated key books from the Silver Age to Copper Age. These are my opinions of course and I know there will be many who disagree. That's why I'm starting a thread so we can discuss differing opinions on the subject. I'm hoping it won't devolve into another debate about what is a first appearance and what's not...but it probably will.

Mods: I looked for a thread on this subject and found nothing when I searched the term "overrated" but please close the thread if you deem it to be redundant. 

My Top Five list(may expand it later):

1. X-Men #94

 What is it a "first" of? The first issue of the "New" X-Men.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because it has zero first appearances, and Giant-Size X-Men is not only the true first issue of the new X-Men, it's even a #1 issue!

 My comments: This book used to be worth more than GSX #1...let me say that again, there was a time when a book with #94 on the cover with no first appearances was actually more valuable than the first appearances of Storm, Nightcrawler and Colossus and the 2nd full appearance of some guy named Wolverine in a #1 issue. Luckily, we came to our senses awhile ago on that, but I still feel this book is way overvalued(or GSX 1 is undervalued...or both). 

2. Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars #8

 What is it a "first" of? The first in-continuity appearance of the black alien costume which eventually joins with Eddie Brock to become Venom.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because it came out 8 months after the alien costume's first actual appearance(it's still listed as the first in some places).

 My comments: It's also described as the "origin" by CGC and while this may be the origin of Spidey putting the costume on, there is absolutely no explanation of where the costume came from. In fact, there is more revealed about the costume and the fact that it's a living symbiote in Amazing Spider-Man #258, which came out a month before and worth a fraction of Secret Wars #8!

 Honorable mention that connects to this: Marvel Team-Up #141 which is described by many as a "tie" with Amazing Spider-Man #252, but came out TWO WEEKS later. 

 3. Uncanny X-Men #266

 What is it a "first" of? This is the first appearance of Gambit. Or is it?

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because everyone already knows that this came out weeks after X-Men Annual #14. Which may be described as a "cameo" of Gambit, but he has lines and appearances throughout the book. He's just not the focus of the story.

 My comments: I know, I know. This one is brought up all the time and everyone is tired of it. But let's look at this rationally. X-Men Annual #14 came out THREE WEEKS before. And was solicited in the prior month. It's also drawn by Art Adams, while #266 was drawn by some fill-in artist name Mike Collins(where's he now?). Who would you rather Gambit be drawn by? #266 should be worth something just like Secret Wars #8 since it's the first in-continuity appearance, but the reality is what it is. X-Men Annual #14 is the first true appearance of the character. 

4. Incredible Hulk #182 

 What is it a "first" of? This is the first appearance of Hammer and Anvil. Uh...you know those guys, right? They were huge.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because this is valuable due to a cameo of Wolverine at the beginning of the book. Giant Size X-Men #1 is known as the second appearance of Wolvie, so what does this make Hulk #182?

 My comments: #182 deserves some value since it's a Wolverine cameo, but this is treated like the third part of some kind of epic trilogy. Wolverine's lines in his three panels on the first page of this book are as follows: "No! You can't do this to me! My failure was only a temporary setback! I can still defeat that big brute! I can!" and "But the Hulk! What about the Hulk?" Then there's not one mention of him again. Wow. Worth hundreds of dollars to me!

5. Incredible Hulk #181

 What is it a "first" of? The first cover and full in-story appearance of Wolverine.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? In Incredible Hulk #180 there is a command to  "Mobilize Weapon X!" at the beginning of the book, and we see Wolvie in all of his glory at the end.

 My comments: #181 deserves to be treasured due to the entire story being devoted to Wolverine and his "introduction" on the cover(which is why it's at the bottom of this list...and this issue's notoriety and ridiculous value also helps it get on the list at all), but is this really that much different than Hobgoblin's first appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #238? Isn't ASM #239 Hobby's first "full" appearance after we only see him for one splash page at the end of #238(although there is the shadowy cover devoted to him...but are we really that superficial as collectors...wait...)? Yet #238 is overwhelmingly more valuable than #239. Either ASM #239 is way undervalued or Hulk #181 is way overvalued. 

Honorable mention that connects to this: Those books with ads for Hulk #181. They came out the month Hulk #181 was released. Last I checked Hulk #180 came out a month earlier. Yeah.

6. X-Men #134

 What is it a "first" of? The first appearance of "Dark" Phoenix.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Well, it has been well established that the Phoenix Force was up to no good from the very beginning, stealing Jean Grey's body and so forth. So, the first appearance of the Phoenix Force was years earlier, hence the events of #134/135 amounts to nothing more than a costume color change and adding the word "Dark" to her name.

 My comments: This book was popular back when they announced they were revisiting the Phoenix storyline in the Dark Phoenix film, but we all know how that went(the musical score is excellent however). Time to move on.

7. Incredible Hulk #234

 What is it a "first" of? The first "appearance" of Quasar!!!

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because Wendell Vaughn had appeared in many issues before wearing the same costume and possessing the same powers under the monikers Marvel Boy and Marvel Man.

 My comments: This one is hilarious. As we get closer to the release of Quantumania and a character called "Quaz"(who may or may not be based on Quasar), this book has had lots of interest. But really, it's a cameo in every sense of the word and he simply shouts "Call me Quasar!" as he flies off. Wow. Yet the next issue he appears in(Marvel Two-In-One #53) is cheap cheap cheap, when it is not only the first book truly devoted to Wendell Vaughn the character, it even has Quasar in the title(and an awesome Byrne/Sinnott cover)!

 

8. Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #134

 What is it a "first" of? The first appearance of Darkseid.

 Why is it an overrated "first"?  While we see his face and he's called by name, his appearance is on a TV screen.

 My comments: I included this one due to many references to it by members of this forum. While I still consider this a first appearance, it baffles me why Forever People #1 isn't worth more than it is since we actually see him “in person”(it has been holding its value better than JO #134 of late, however). This immediately makes me think of Amazing Spider-Man #360. Which leads into the next book on our list...

9. Amazing Spider-Man #361

 What is it a "first" of? The first “appearance” of Carnage.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Unlike Jimmy Olsen #134's Darkseid's one-panel appearance on a monitor, in the issue before this in a page solely devoted to Carnage, we actually see half of his face, he kills someone and calls himself Carnage, yet it's worth $10 raw and really not that sought after.

 My comments: Jimmy Olsen #134 CGC 9.0 value: $600.00, Forever People #1 CGC 9.0 value: $350.00. Amazing Spider-Man #360 CGC 9.6 value: $60.00, #361 CGC 9.6 value: $175.00. Need I say more?

 

10. Marvel Collectible Classics Spider-Man #1(AKA “Amazing Spider-Man #300 Chromium”)

 What is it a "first" of? A “variant cover” of the first “full” appearance of Venom.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? This came out 10 years after Amazing Spider-Man #300 was published.

 My comments: It's a REPRINT. NOT a variant cover. 'Nuff said. Best option for an ASM #300 "variant" is a newsstand, that's it folks. No Canadian, no Mark Jewelers and sorry, no Chromium.

 

10a. Marvel Collectible Classics Spider-Man #2(AKA Spider-Man #1 Chromium”)

 What is it a "first" of? A “variant cover” of the first issue of Spider-Man by Todd McFarlane.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? This came out 8 years after Spider-Man #1 was published.

 My comments: As mentioned above, this is a REPRINT. NOT a variant cover. Go get the Platinum or Gold UPC variant covers over this travesty of comic book collecting.

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by trademarkcomics

[Happy Noodle Boy]

For me, first appearances only work if the character is on the cover. This is one reason why Strange tales 110 took so long to begin catching up to the other Marvel silver age first appearances. I completely agree on X-Men 94 versus GS X-Men 1, though I agree with the hobby that Hulk 181 is just a cooler book than 180. Wolverine's on the cover of 181; that's huge. If I was a Wolverine fan (I'm not) I would definitely prize 181 over 180, though I would make sure to also pick up a 180 for the sake of completeness.

Moon Knight's my boy and WWbN 32 is my grail. A great first appearance with a classic cover.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

1. X-Men #94

 What is it a "first" of? The first issue of the "New" X-Men.

It's the first appearance of the new team.

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because it has zero first appearances, and Giant-Size X-Men is not only the true first issue of the new X-Men, it's even a #1 issue!

So what? You want to talk overrated? (Over)Valuing an issue just because it's a #1 is

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

2. Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars #8

 What is it a "first" of? The first in-continuity appearance of the black alien costume which eventually joins with Eddie Brock to become Venom.

Well, it was at the time, but that's the thing about first chronological continuity appearances...

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because it came out 8 months after the alien costume's first actual appearance(it's still listed as the first in some places).

Yes, this one is actually overrated because people are stupid, don't understand dates, and far too often refer to this as the first appearance of the costume.

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

 3. Uncanny X-Men #266

What is it a "first" of? This is the first appearance of Gambit. Or is it?

No, it's the first full appearance. It's an issue that somebody who actually cares about Gambit would want to read, unlike the Annual.

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because everyone already knows that this came out weeks after X-Men Annual #14. Which may be described as a "cameo" of Gambit, but he has lines and appearances throughout the book.

Well, technically, at least after he and Storm are introduced to the story.

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

He's just not the focus of the story.

That's... putting it mildly.

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

5. Incredible Hulk #181

 

is this really that much different than Hobgoblin's first appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #238?

Yes. ASM 238 is all about Hobgoblin (and Peter's life because it's still an issue of ASM, duh). Hulk 180 is all about Hulk and Wendigo.

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Isn't ASM #239 Hobby's first "full" appearance after we only see him for one splash page at the end of #238

No, and the claim that we only see him on one splash page in 238 is false.

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

are we really that superficial as collectors

Based on this and #3, you definitely are. Some people, on the other hand, actually understand storytelling.

On 1/22/2023 at 11:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Honorable mention that connects to this: Those books with ads for Hulk #181. They came out the month Hulk #181 was released.

Not only that, but they didn't even come out before Hulk 181. Still, isn't it interesting that Marvel's ad for their great new character, Wolverine, is for Hulk 181 and not Hulk 180?

[D2]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:42 AM, Lazyboy said:

It's the first appearance of the new team.

So what? You want to talk overrated? (Over)Valuing an issue just because it's a #1 is

Well, it was at the time, but that's the thing about first chronological continuity appearances...

Yes, this one is actually overrated because people are stupid, don't understand dates, and far too often refer to this as the first appearance of the costume.

No, it's the first full appearance. It's an issue that somebody who actually cares about Gambit would want to read, unlike the Annual.

Well, technically, at least after he and Storm are introduced to the story.

That's... putting it mildly.

Yes. ASM 238 is all about Hobgoblin (and Peter's life because it's still an issue of ASM, duh). Hulk 180 is all about Hulk and Wendigo.

No, and the claim that we only see him on one splash page in 238 is false.

Based on this and #3, you definitely are. Some people, on the other hand, actually understand storytelling.

Not only that, but they didn't even come out before Hulk 181. Still, isn't it interesting that Marvel's ad for their great new character, Wolverine, is for Hulk 181 and not Hulk 180?

 

[Kripsys99]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:42 AM, Lazyboy said:

It's the first appearance of the new team.

So what? You want to talk overrated? (Over)Valuing an issue just because it's a #1 is

Well, it was at the time, but that's the thing about first chronological continuity appearances...

Yes, this one is actually overrated because people are stupid, don't understand dates, and far too often refer to this as the first appearance of the costume.

No, it's the first full appearance. It's an issue that somebody who actually cares about Gambit would want to read, unlike the Annual.

Well, technically, at least after he and Storm are introduced to the story.

That's... putting it mildly.

Yes. ASM 238 is all about Hobgoblin (and Peter's life because it's still an issue of ASM, duh). Hulk 180 is all about Hulk and Wendigo.

No, and the claim that we only see him on one splash page in 238 is false.

Based on this and #3, you definitely are. Some people, on the other hand, actually understand storytelling.

Not only that, but they didn't even come out before Hulk 181. Still, isn't it interesting that Marvel's ad for their great new character, Wolverine, is for Hulk 181 and not Hulk 180?

[the blob]

I thought early on there was a perception that there were a lot more GS X-men 1 than #94s?

 

[Lazyboy]

Number one on my list is any single-page appearance, especially if it's on the last page setting up the next issue. Yeah, they are technically the first appearance, but I'm interested in characters and stories, not tricks that publishers and/or writers use in serialized stories.

If you want to get more specific, I will call out two of the worst that aren't last page setups: Marvel Super-Heroes 13 (Carol Danvers) and Avengers 181 (Scott Lang). Wow, I really get to see a single page of a regular human working? Just take my wallet!

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 5:23 PM, the blob said:

I thought early on there was a perception that there were a lot more GS X-men 1 than #94s?

 

Early on? Perception? The high grade disparity is also significantly in favor of GSX 1.

[JC25427N]

This can only go well

[southern cross]

[s-man]

I vote for any modern book that is hyped by a movie or tv show.  Every time there is even a hint of a particular character that might be in an upcoming production, all of a sudden that particular book blows up.  Gotta love speculation 

[jcjames]

I will easily give anyone a IH180 for their IH181, grade-for-grade, and even an additional 50% of the value of IH180 as a bonus. 

Anyone? 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 1/22/2023 at 9:38 PM, trademarkcomics said:

 

1. X-Men #94

 What is it a "first" of?

 

First book in their regular title and first coalescing of the new team (e.g. old team members leave).  But not worth more than GS X-Men.  Basically, the Amazing Spiderman 1 to AF 15.

My vote is for IH 181 over IH 180.  Not a first.  We learn a LOT about Wolvie's origin in 180 and get a full appearance in costume and continuity.

The things I hate are the folks trying to turn Comic Reader, Comic Journal, Comic Buyer's Guide, FOOM etc. ads into "first appearances" or, worse yet in the case of the Foom "wolverine" - fake prototypes.

[EricNeedHam]

Shouldnt the issue in Secret Wars where the symbiote drops from the wish machine be the first appearance of the Black costume…..and does the Spider-Woman first appearance in her Black Costume actually be considered since it inspired Peter’s design wish????

[the blob]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:39 PM, Lazyboy said:

Early on? Perception? The high grade disparity is also significantly in favor of GSX 1.

Well there are not vastly more GS X-Men 1 in the CGC census. There are mor, 9K+ to 12K+e. X-Men 94's cover shows more boo boos for sure. I vaguely remember GS #1 was in the Mile High 2 hoard in quantity, but that would not explain why X-Men 94 was the more expensive book in 1982 or whatever as well as MH 2 was a couple of years later. And being a #1 was probably ordered more than #94 of a comic that had been in reprints for years. But absolutely, when I was a kid 1980-82 X-Men 94 had the edge.

Edited January 24, 2023 by the blob

[the blob]

 

On 1/23/2023 at 7:09 PM, s-man said:

I vote for any modern book that is hyped by a movie or tv show.  Every time there is even a hint of a particular character that might be in an upcoming production, all of a sudden that particular book blows up.  Gotta love speculation 

Shhhh. A lot of folks here were funding childrens' college and their retirement with that.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, sfcityduck said:

We learn a LOT about Wolvie's origin in 180

 What?

On 1/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, sfcityduck said:

and get a full appearance in costume and continuity.

No, a single page is not a full appearance, which has nothing to do with how much of the character is drawn by the artist.

On 1/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, sfcityduck said:

The things I hate are the folks trying to turn Comic Reader, Comic Journal, Comic Buyer's Guide, FOOM etc. ads into "first appearances" or, worse yet in the case of the Foom "wolverine" - fake prototypes.

Yeah, but those aren't keys, so we don't even need to acknowledge them in this thread (or anywhere).

[Lazyboy]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:23 PM, EricNeedHam said:

Shouldnt the issue in Secret Wars where the symbiote drops from the wish machine be the first appearance of the Black costume…..and does the Spider-Woman first appearance in her Black Costume actually be considered since it inspired Peter’s design wish????

How could MSHSW 8 possibly be the first appearance of something that appeared many months earlier and had already been in a couple of dozen issues?

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:23 PM, EricNeedHam said:

Shouldnt the issue in Secret Wars where the symbiote drops from the wish machine be the first appearance of the Black costume…..and does the Spider-Woman first appearance in her Black Costume actually be considered since it inspired Peter’s design wish????

Yes, if you've read this thread and understand it, you would see how what you ask is out of place and has been debunked in great detail.

I want to give the benefit of the doubt, but it "could mean" 1st chronological in order or reading order for an appearance?

And the world for that? Is called an "origin issue!" That doesn't make it chronological in real world appearance, except Spider-Man finding the symbiote firstly in sw8 that is just an origin issue. Meanwhile people who read symbiote issues in the real world had months full of seeing an symbiote appearance before sw8. Lol

It's bewitched how it always gets advertised as a 1st, because it is an origin people get confused? idk. That is the Only way "I can understand" to put it straight every time I read it

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[Gatsby77]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:22 PM, Lazyboy said:

How could MSHSW 8 possibly be the first appearance of something that appeared many months earlier and had already been in a couple of dozen issues?

I can see the "chronological story" argument or "origin" (as in, where Peter first *finds* the black costume in Secret Wars 8), but no - it's not the first black costume.

That's definitively ASM 252.

But I'll raise you New Mutants 98 vs. X-Force 11.

I bought New Mutants 98 off the shelf. The reason it jumped to an $8 book almost instantly was it was the first appearance of Domino - not Deadpool. Domino - new character, part of X-Force, yay.

Deadpool was cool but didn't really take off until a few years later - with the writing in his ongoing book.

I stopped reading X-Force after # 8, so I wasn't even aware that Nicieza apparently retconned her with issues 11 (then 15) - and that Copycat was the one from New Mutants 98 through the first year of X-Force. Even if he planned it all along, I refuse to consider X-Force 11 the "first Domino."

Other pet peeve?

Characters who don't actually appear in books.

Key examples are Werewolf by Night # 37 - Moon Knight's on the cover, but he's not in the book.

Ditto Hulk # 359. Wolverine's on the cover, but he's not in the book.