Top 5 M-SHE-U Failures 4 4

[Kripsys99]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:03 AM, PopKulture said:

Just as a heads-up, this would probably be considered by moderation a trespass into politics, which is expressly forbidden on these Boards. I don't want to see anyone get a flogging, 'less of course they're into it.  

Thanks for the heads up! As a non-American, I'm always surprised when matters of historical and/or scientific fact are considered political by my American brethren! ;) I'll try to be more careful in the future.

[JC25427N]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:14 AM, Kripsys99 said:

Thanks for the heads up! As a non-American, I'm always surprised when matters of historical and/or scientific fact are considered political by my American brethren!  I'll try to be more careful in the future.

Nothing to do with being American or not, you didn't mention a matter of historical or scientific fact, you mentioned you would not be surprised if someone participated in a certain historical event that had heavy political connotations. 

It's like the difference between saying "This tree burned down" and "I wouldn't be surprised if he was the type of person to go around burning trees".  Difference here though is burning a tree doesn't really ascribe anything political, but participating in the event you brought up clearly does.  

Edited April 13, 2023 by JC25427N

[Kripsys99]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:33 AM, JC25427N said:

Nothing to do with being American or not, you didn't mention a matter of historical or scientific fact, you mentioned you would not be surprised if someone participated in a certain historical event that had heavy political connotations. 

It's like the difference between saying "This tree burned down" and "I wouldn't be surprised if he was the type of person to go around burning trees".  

Ah, I see. My inference that he may be the type of individual who would have been involved in the insurrection puts it out of bounds. My bad! Thanks for the heads up.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Kripsys99

[sfcityduck]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:22 PM, drotto said:

 

 

 Instead, I have always been drawn to team books, especially the X-Men.  One of the main reasons is, I like having both male and female characters. It provides, for me, a balance and perspective that single character male centric books always seemed to lack.  I have the long boxes to prove that I have tried so many of these new supposedly hot characters, and after years and 100's of issues, I gave up.  The reason, the new characters lacked development, they lacked originality, they lacked subtly, they lacked faults, and the lacked growth. It is seeing that these attempts are far more about pandering, appeasement, and has become about checking boxes, not about creating characters.  

As a kid Claremont/Cockrum/Byrne/Austin X-Men were my favorite book too. Why? The art, writing, and most especially the civil rights for an oppressed minority theme. It was a very political book - maybe never more so than in Days of Future Past and the Magneto concentration camp origin story. Your favorite character Kitty Pryde was a rare Jewish character.  It was diverse and not afraid to tackle political issues.

I stopped buying new comics by 1990.  Why? I thought the companies got too greedy, art got worse, and the artists started drawing pin-ups instead of narratives.  
 

I occasionally try new titles.  The best are those that try to be fun not profound or near-pornographic.  The only manga that I have loved was Lone Wolf.  I don’t recall any great manga movies.
 

Am I out of touch - yeah.  But that makes me the sweet spot for the MCU since their bread and butter is my nostalgia.  Which is a problem for them.  I am too old to be a sustainable target audience anymore.  They need to aim younger. The Miles Morales movie was a brilliant move, a joy to watch, and the SpiderGwen character was pretty cool. MCU has some good new characters.  Give them a chance.  Every Marvel movie has faults.  

 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:43 PM, Kripsys99 said:

Unless you are saying that you're knowingly accusing people, you may want to re-read some of your previous posts in this thread, with an eye towards what you are implying are the motivations of anyone who disagrees with your position.

Everything I do is knowing.  My points are narrow and targeted to specific comments. If someone’s rant against ‘Disney” is predicated on the notion the MCU has been ruined by “female domination” when the facts being ignored evidence otherwise, there is probably an agenda or bias at work.  Calling for a return to balance when only one of the first twenty films was centered on a female character and only six of the next twelve were is counter-factual.  That’s a portrait of a lot of imbalance only now being replaced by balance not evidence of “female domination.”  That complaint is more than a bit shrill. A good argument can be made that Marvel should put 19 movies centered on women if the goal is to acheive balance.

Edited April 13, 2023 by sfcityduck

[jdandns]

Yeah, for the most part, these movies are better than the comics they're based on.

Marvel has had some classic comics over the years, but most are mediocre to downright lousy.

That each and every one of these movies must be classic is some good ol' magical thinking given the source material.

Try to not think so much when you watch them. The writers of 95% of all Marvel comic books certainly didn't want you to.

 

[Kripsys99]

On 4/13/2023 at 3:50 AM, sfcityduck said:

Everything I do is knowing.

 

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 3:50 AM, sfcityduck said:

Everything I do is knowing.  My points are narrow and targeted to specific comments. If someone’s rant against ‘Disney” is predicated on the notion the MCU has been ruined by “female domination” when the facts being ignored evidence otherwise, there is probably an agenda or bias at work.  Calling for a return to balance when only one of the first twenty films was centered on a female character and only six of the next twelve were is counter-factual.  That’s a portrait of a lot of imbalance only now being replaced by balance not evidence of “female domination.”  That complaint is more than a bit shrill. A good argument can be made that Marvel should put 19 movies centered on women if the goal is to acheive balance.

But you claim to be narrowly focused in your comments, and my comment about female dominance was similarly narrowly focused. The films coming out now, as in Phase 4 and Phase 5, have swung too far the other way.  It is an over correction.  Just as it was not right for it to be so male focused in the earlier stages, (Balck Widow should have been a phase 2 film) it does not make an over correction justified either. Especially,  when that swing has been coupled with very poor, shallow, and narrowly focused characters and writing. Remember, two wrongs do not make a right.

 

It just happens that that over correction also corresponds to the apparent declined in popularity of thr MCU. That can only mean one of two things, and maybe both.  First, the stories are just not as good and people are losing interests. Second, Marvel is alienating a portion of its fan base, and are not gaining enough new fans to offset the loses.

 

 

[Bosco685]

On 4/13/2023 at 3:50 AM, sfcityduck said:

Everything I do is knowing. 

Thank you Comic Book Dalai Lama for blessing us with your pearls of wisdom and insights.

[theCapraAegagrus]

The MCU isn't losing fans because Marvel is prioritizing female leads. The MCU is losing fans because Marvel is prioritizing female leads over competent and compelling writing.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:42 AM, drotto said:

 

 

It just happens that that over correction also corresponds to the apparent declined in popularity of thr MCU. 

 

 

How is Marvel having four of the top 10 grossing films of 2022 an “apparent decline” again?  That is a decline every other property would love to experience.  Your premise is suspect.

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:08 AM, sfcityduck said:

How is Marvel having four of the top 10 grossing films of 2022 an “apparent decline” again?  That is a decline every other property would love to experience.  Your premise is suspect.

Box office is down, and ticket sales are down. Remember, things are relative.  There sucess has been unrivaled for 10 plus years, now they are going to be second to Top Gun, Avatar, and Mario Brothers. They are beatable now, and films are barely braking even because production and marketing costs have skyrocketed. The streaming shows are not in the Neilson rop 10. That is a decline. Just because you are still near the top in box office does not mean it's  working.

 

The upper management is being shuffled.  Budget are being re-evaluated.  Everything is being delayed for quality reasons.  These are not the moves of a company that is at the top if it's game, and putting out it's best product.  It is a company that sees they have problems and they are trying to correct.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:42 AM, drotto said:

But you claim to be narrowly focused in your comments, and my comment about female dominance was similarly narrowly focused. The films coming out now, as in Phase 4 and Phase 5, have swung too far the other way.  It is an over correction.  Just as it was not right for it to be so male focused in the earlier stages, (Balck Widow should have been a phase 2 film) it does not make an over correction justified either. Especially,  when that swing has been coupled with very poor, shallow, and narrowly focused characters and writing. Remember, two wrongs do not make a right.

 

 

 

Marvel’s first 20 MCU movies had only one centered on a female character (and she got second billing).  The next twelve arguably had six centered on a female character. How is that an “over correction”?  

It is 50%. How small a percentage do you want?
 

The way you remedy the mistake of not telling enough female centered stories is you tell more.  That’s not a “wrong” that’s a solution.

If your criticism is truly about the storytelling, then I would expect you to advocate  for BETTER stories about women, not LESS stories about women.
 

 

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:08 AM, sfcityduck said:

How is Marvel having four of the top 10 grossing films of 2022 an “apparent decline” again?  That is a decline every other property would love to experience.  Your premise is suspect.

Yeah, Disney's loving it so much they're firing just about everyone responsible for it. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Hulksdaddy1

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:50 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The MCU isn't losing fans because Marvel is prioritizing female leads. The MCU is losing fans because Marvel is prioritizing female leads over competent and compelling writing.

The underlying templet from which all characters are being written has become painfully obvious.  They are currently writing only 4 characters when it comes to the hero side of things. Sometimes characters can take traits from the other type but only within the gender.

Female A (FA) = strong, does not need a man or really anyone else, best at what they, somewhat stoic

Female B (FB) = the power is within you and training not needed to bring it out just need to believe in yourself, a FA in the making

Male A (MA)= comic relief character

Male B (MB)= older legacy character, usually being presented as past their prime, will eventually take a back seat to a newer character, will be put in their place at some point

You can go through basically every character in Phase 4 and Phase 5 and they will fit one of these categories. 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:18 AM, drotto said:

Box office is down, and ticket sales are down. Remember, things are relative.  Their sucess has been unrivaled for 10 plus years, now they are going to be second to Top Gun, Avatar, and Mario Brothers. 

2022 was a year impacted by the pandemic.  Box office and ticket sales are down for the entire industry!  That is not a Marvel problem. Marvel had four of the top ten grossing movies of 2022.  No other property had more than two.

Avatar beat out all competition on gross sales when it came out, including male centered Marvel movies.  That Avatar 2 beats out Marvel movies again is not evidence of decline.  It is to be expected.  Don’t be naive, four out of ten top grossing movies of 2022 is success even if two movies beat you out for the top spot.  

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:18 AM, drotto said:

 

The upper management is being shuffled.  Budget are being re-evaluated.  Everything is being delayed for quality reasons.  These are not the moves of a company that is at the top if it's game, and putting out it's best product.  It is a company that sees they have problems and they are trying to correct.

Yes.  They have a problem due to scarcity of access to vfx and they fired an abusive executive who wasn’t handling that problem well and reshuffled their schedule (a historically common occurrence) to help fix that problem.

Which has what to do with female centered movies?  Nothing.

You guys are getting desperate and are just flinging mud against the walls in the hope some sticks.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:23 AM, drotto said:

The underlying templet from which all characters are being written has become painfully obvious.  

I hate to break this to you, but the templates have always been painfully obvious.  These are comic book movies.  They follow well defined formulas that have around longer than most of us have been alive. There  have always been templates. All that has changed is that females are no longer limited to the damsel in distress template and men aren’t always slotted into the near perfect hero who always comes through template.  That is an improvement because now we get to see something other than the same old template and in shows like Loki and WandaVision we see the envelope being pushed in exciting and innovative ways instead of yet another retread of an old story.

[october]

On 4/13/2023 at 9:29 AM, sfcityduck said:

2022 was a year impacted by the pandemic.  Box office and ticket sales are down for the entire industry!  That is not a Marvel problem. Marvel had four of the top ten grossing movies of 2022.  No other property had more than two.

Avatar beat out all competition on gross sales when it came out, including male centered Marvel movies.  That Avatar 2 beats out Marvel movies again is not evidence of decline.  It is to be expected.  Don’t be naive, four out of ten top grossing movies of 2022 is success even if two movies beat you out for the top spot.  

Companies don't aim for gross. They aim for net. Marvel movies are horribly expensive to make and market, so much so that anything less than half a billion WW box office is a flop. Disney+ loses roughly a billion dollars each quarter. That's billion with a "b" and quarter with a "q". It's not sustainable. Yes, the shows and movies are popular, but that ignores the other half of the question/equation. Are they as popular as they need to be to justify their expense? The answer is shifting closer to "no".

Edited April 13, 2023 by october

[drotto]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:19 AM, sfcityduck said:

Marvel’s first 20 MCU movies had only one centered on a female character (and she got second billing).  The next twelve arguably had six centered on a female character. How is that an “over correction”?  

It is 50%. How small a percentage do you want?
 

The way you remedy the mistake of not telling enough female centered stories is you tell more.  That’s not a “wrong” that’s a solution.

If your criticism is truly about the storytelling, then I would expect you to advocate  for BETTER stories about women, not LESS stories about women.
 

 

But you do not need to tell female stories at the expense of the male characters.  It has nothing to do with percentages.  If they were good stories, with good characters, nobody would care.  See the post about how the writers are writing four characters, and clearly using a templet on how stories need to be told. Most of the stories being told right now follow a very clear and repeated templet. Audiences are losing interest, not because they hate female characters, they are losing interest because they are being given the same repeated characters, in movies that have basically the same plot. Now, it is valid to say comics have always done this, and you would be correct. But that is over 75 years of history and countless books.  This is over 34 films and 18 years.  The source material is so plentiful that it is possible to weed out the repetitive storylines and characters, when so little has actually been presented on screen. The writers however do not have the talent to do this.

 

As for there is nothing wrong with the solution, if the MCU had found a good solution, they would not be seeing diminishing returns.  Yes, they need to be telling better stories, that is all I have been saying. They can also be telling better stories, without needing to diminish the male characters in the process. Back to the idea about balance. A good solution would have been having a Black Widow movie in Phase 3 or even Phase 2.  I am still waiting to see what the heck happened in Budapest. They needed to organically weave these characters in starting much further back, even from the start, and not just dumping them all out in 2 years. The issue is they did it too much, too fast, and the result was one dimensional characters, in poor repetitive stories.