Gerber's Photo Journal Guide to Comic Books Vol. 1,2 3 3

[fifties]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:40 PM, lou_fine said:

Yes indeed, as I clearly remember these old used books stores with some of them carrying used comics for 5 cents back in the 60's. 

A Nickle apiece for back issue dime comic books?  How extravagant!   

[Professor K]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:12 PM, Robot Man said:

As a kid in Pasadena, CA, there was the Book Nook. At the time considered a “bad” part of town by my parents. Full of pawn shops, junk shops, liquor stores as well as the Free Press hippy book store and Poh Bah records. We would ride our bikes over there and prowl around.

The owner of the Book Nook was a crusty old geezer that didn’t like kids much. He had a couple boxes of fairly recent comics (circa 1963-64). Price 10 cents each. Rarely saw 10 centers.

One day, I was sifting through a bunch of old Life mags and saw something colorful was peeking out. I pulled out a very early ‘40’s WDCS. A couple other old comics and a Superman #9! They had neat pencil marks on the back $3. I pulled it and another one out, picked out a few out of the 10 cent box and walked up to the owner. He saw the two GA books and had a fit asking me where I got them. He wasn’t going to sell them until I showed him the money. He took it and off I went. This happed several other times as well. Money always talks.

Local folklore among the kids was the basement where there were stacks of really old comics. We were afraid to sneak down there so we never found out. There was just something creepy about it. 

The store closed s few years later. Went and it was empty. By then we were mostly into the hippy scene in the area and didn’t care as much about comic books. 

Oh man I wonder what was down there. 

[mintcomics1]

I've got 'em along with the Marvel set.

Mine are both marked up as a handy want list reference.

I remember reading about an offer that a wealthy collector made to the community, where he wanted to buy every comic in the Gerber guides.

Couldn't find the article.

[Cat-Man_America]

On 4/15/2023 at 2:47 PM, fifties said:

IMHO it did not.  The whole point of any book is to READ it, and of course that can't be done when the tome is entombed.  Yes, the hobby changed; now we have "investors" relying on slabbed higher grade books and looking for a "greater fool" to profit by flipping.  

It depends a lot on what you collect and how you collect it, but I completely see your viewpoint. Reading comics, ...you're absolutely right. That said, interest in comics and the growth of collecting as a "culture" (for want of a better term for it) was dependent upon encapsulation. It was an inevitable result of the increasing demand and value placed on comics. Protective holders insured longevity of the books beyond their expected shelf life (given the delicate nature of pulp paper survival) and third-party grading provided a level of trust, caveats notwithstanding (that's another topic altogether),  

As for "investors" ($$$) and "greater fool" (money parting) ...what I occasionally refer to as the auction house game of musical chairs... we're pretty much on the same page there. Just speaking for myself, I got back into GA comics partially because of encapsulation; even though I have occasionally sold or traded books I don't think anyone would describe me in dolphin terminology. 

For reading, there's always reprints & archive editions that don't involve handling delicate books in high grade. Note: As a condition "freak" I have a compulsion to seek out higher grades obsessively which plays into some of my personal quirks about collecting.

[comicjack]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:23 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

Is the Gerber Scarcity Index still as relevant today?

Use it as a tool but don't stand by the ratings some are close but most are not 

[Ryan.]

Cover collecting, speculation and flipping existed long before encapsulation. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/15/2023 at 3:14 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

The "scarcity index" has changed a bit real world numbers-wise, but scarce is still scarce with some books being harder to find than others. My recollection is that there were a couple of dozen "no shows" all of which have been discovered over time in the marketplace or in collections, some still rare and ...unless I'm mistaken... all being rare in grade.  

Here's one example, PRIZE Comics #20 with an outstanding Jack Binder cover:

My copy (second highest grade, 8.5 OW/W PQ, from the Jon Berk Collection; 7 copies in the CGC census, this is the 8th). Sorry, can't post the label without CGC approval.

There's a Church copy in a collection & Robot Man mentioned owning a raw copy, but at the time of Gerber's Photo Journals, this beauty was considered a No Show (IOW, thought not to exist).

This one was a Gerber white-space issue but it isn't rare; there are 24 copies in the census. It does appear to be uncommon in high grade.

[fifties]

On 4/16/2023 at 12:30 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

It depends a lot on what you collect and how you collect it, but I completely see your viewpoint. Reading comics, ...you're absolutely right. That said, interest in comics and the growth of collecting as a "culture" (for want of a better term for it) was dependent upon encapsulation. It was an inevitable result of the increasing demand and value placed on comics. Protective holders insured longevity of the books beyond their expected shelf life (given the delicate nature of pulp paper survival) and third-party grading provided a level of trust, caveats notwithstanding (that's another topic altogether),  

As for "investors" ($$$) and "greater fool" (money parting) ...what I occasionally refer to as the auction house game of musical chairs... we're pretty much on the same page there. Just speaking for myself, I got back into GA comics partially because of encapsulation; even though I have occasionally sold or traded books I don't think anyone would describe me in dolphin terminology. 

For reading, there's always reprints & archive editions that don't involve handling delicate books in high grade. Note: As a condition "freak" I have a compulsion to seek out higher grades obsessively which plays into some of my personal quirks about collecting.

Yes, encapsulation developed a second tier in the growth of our hobby, and in fact created another facet; the idea of where a book stood in the realm of highest graded.  Personally, and I know this won't fly with CGC collectors, I look at it as a somewhat false sense of value, since only a portion -and I would speculate a small portion at that- of the books in the wild have been CGC graded.  So a "4th highest graded" which could be a garden variety VG, would not necessarily be all that rare, and could be rather common.   CGC obviously doesn't adhere to Overstreet guidelines AFA grading.  They'll give a book up to a 3.5 (G-VG) with brittle pages, which would be a Poor by Overstreet standards.  Their grading is apparently cover intensive, which might fly for encapsulated books, but simply doesn't tell the whole story.

AFA preservation, I have comic books bought at the news stand in 1953 and never even put in Mylar bags until maybe 2000 or so, and they haven't seemed to age a bit.  On the contrary, I've read that encapsulated books need to be changed out every so many years because they can deteriorate inside the plastic.  IDK of course, B/C I liberate any entombed books I obtain, in order to read them.

Regarding actually reading them, yes, you can read damn near any comic book online, reprinted in replica format, or presented in hard back compilations, but it just ain't the same to many of us old-timers.  When you read the letters page in EC's, for example, it just offers a slice of life at the time the book was published; nostalgia if you will.  And some of the ads, offering things that can't be obtained anymore.  

This is a good back and forth discussion.

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/15/2023 at 3:47 PM, fifties said:

IMHO it did not.  The whole point of any book is to READ it, and of course that can't be done when the tome is entombed.  Yes, the hobby changed; now we have "investors" relying on slabbed higher grade books and looking for a "greater fool" to profit by flipping.  

I seldom read comic books, but I don't collect for profit. I enjoy looking at the cover art, and I can enjoy doing that while the books are safely protected in the slabs. In an ideal world I'd have a high-grade slabbed copy of every book and a lower grade raw copy to go along with it so I could look at the interior art. I have damaged raw comic books before even while trying to be careful, so I don't like to handle anything expensive or high grade.

Edited April 17, 2023 by jimbo_7071

[buttock]

On 4/15/2023 at 1:47 PM, fifties said:

IMHO it did not.  The whole point of any book is to READ it, and of course that can't be done when the tome is entombed.  Yes, the hobby changed; now we have "investors" relying on slabbed higher grade books and looking for a "greater fool" to profit by flipping.  

Wait until you learn that coin collectors don't spend their coins.

[fifties]

On 4/16/2023 at 12:23 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I seldom read comic books, but I don't collect for profit. I enjoy looking at the cover art, and I can enjoy doing that while the cooks are safely protected in the slabs. In an ideal world I'd have a high-grade slabbed copy of every book and a lower grade raw copy to go along with it so I could look at the interior art. I have damaged raw comic books before even while trying to be careful, so I don't like to handle anything expensive or high grade.

Personally I don't need slabs to enjoy going over my collection -in Mylars- to view the covers.  With some of my books, ESP EC's, I have two copies; a lower grade for reading, the other in much nicer shape. 

I too have damaged books when reading them, ESP covers becoming detached, or an occasional cover tear, but that's an unfortunate facet of why I collect.  I'll never sell them, so the monetary loss is inconsequential.  I read a few of my comics almost every night.  With my age-related loss of memory, most of the stories are new again.  And with 2,000 pre code books...

[LDarkseid1]

On 4/16/2023 at 4:15 AM, comicjack said:

Use it as a tool but don't stand by the ratings some are close but most are not 

Got it, thanks!

[Tbone911t]

On 4/14/2023 at 7:49 PM, WolverineX said:

How often do these get reprinted? I need a new copy. 

@rtsunlimited had some 4 sale 

 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:00 PM, fifties said:

Yes, encapsulation developed a second tier in the growth of our hobby, and in fact created another facet; the idea of where a book stood in the realm of highest graded.  Personally, and I know this won't fly with CGC collectors, I look at it as a somewhat false sense of value, since only a portion -and I would speculate a small portion at that- of the books in the wild have been CGC graded.  So a "4th highest graded" which could be a garden variety VG, would not necessarily be all that rare, and could be rather common.   CGC obviously doesn't adhere to Overstreet guidelines AFA grading.  They'll give a book up to a 3.5 (G-VG) with brittle pages, which would be a Poor by Overstreet standards.  Their grading is apparently cover intensive, which might fly for encapsulated books, but simply doesn't tell the whole story.

AFA preservation, I have comic books bought at the news stand in 1953 and never even put in Mylar bags until maybe 2000 or so, and they haven't seemed to age a bit.  On the contrary, I've read that encapsulated books need to be changed out every so many years because they can deteriorate inside the plastic.  IDK of course, B/C I liberate any entombed books I obtain, in order to read them.

Regarding actually reading them, yes, you can read damn near any comic book online, reprinted in replica format, or presented in hard back compilations, but it just ain't the same to many of us old-timers.  When you read the letters page in EC's, for example, it just offers a slice of life at the time the book was published; nostalgia if you will.  And some of the ads, offering things that can't be obtained anymore.  

This is a good back and forth discussion.

This is a very good discussion.  Your care and handling of raw GA comics reflects how passionate you are about the hobby.

You raise some excellent points about third party grading being cover intensive and IMO, this is where it should be (interiors considered in grader's notes and given PQ designation); that's where trust comes in. When grading falls short it can usually be seen in how tight or lax covers appear to be graded.

One place I have reservations is whether or how often encapsulated books need to be changed out. Logic dictates that it serves any third party grading company to have comics resubmitted periodically as a business model (grade bumps being the prospective cheese held out). In respect to deterioration inside holders, it fails to explain how some books "miraculously" improve after many years of encapsulation.  I'm not saying that there's no truth to this, but it isn't a proven fact. Storage conditions I'd consider a more important consideration.

From my perspective, reprints can be enjoyable as an interim/alternative, but you're right, it isn't the same experience and won't be as satisfying as collecting the original books. But for those collectors held back by the high octane auction house environment it may be sufficient to "keep them in the hunt" so to speak. True, reprints lack that sublime pulp paper spell and reprint quality varies widely, but it provides a nice option for filling gaps in collections as opposed to cashing out and dropping out of collecting altogether when prices or availability make comics of interest unobtainable. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Cat-Man_America
Ale added!

[circumstances]

These have been pretty much indispensable as a GA collector since their date of realease.

As far as the scarcity index, I'm often amazed how crazy difficult some of his 5s and 6s have proven to be over the years.

I think he way overshot how available some of those books were.

[rtsunlimited]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:00 PM, Tbone911t said:

@rtsunlimited had some 4 sale 

 

Hi All!

Yup! I still have sets of all volumes for sale. All are new, unread, and still in their original shrink-wrap.

PM me for details.

Thanks much!

Tim C.

RTS

[Professor K]

On 4/17/2023 at 1:31 PM, circumstances said:

These have been pretty much indispensable as a GA collector since their date of realease.

As far as the scarcity index, I'm often amazed how crazy difficult some of his 5s and 6s have proven to be over the years.

I think he way overshot how available some of those books were.

I suppose at the time he didn't have a whole lot to go by. Today with the easy access to most past sales history of graded examples we can pretty much figure it out for ourselves. In most cases I figure if there are X amount graded there are most likely at least the same amount ungraded. Other than the huge money books probably a lot more raw than graded but probably not in higher grades. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/17/2023 at 2:04 PM, Professor K said:

I suppose at the time he didn't have a whole lot to go by. Today with the easy access to most past sales history of graded examples we can pretty much figure it out for ourselves. In most cases I figure if there are X amount graded there are most likely at least the same amount ungraded. Other than the huge money books probably a lot more raw than graded but probably not in higher grades. 

I would say that if there are x graded, then there are at least 5x–10x ungraded.

[fifties]

On 4/27/2023 at 2:54 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I would say that if there are x graded, then there are at least 5x–10x ungraded.

I think you're being quite conservative.  My uneducated estimate would be more like 30-50 times in any grade.

[jimbo_7071]

On 4/27/2023 at 9:31 PM, fifties said:

I think you're being quite conservative.  My uneducated estimate would be more like 30-50 times in any grade.

You may be right. The vast majority of GA books are locked away raw in private collections.

Edited April 28, 2023 by jimbo_7071