The Edgar Church Mile high copy of Superman # 1 2 2

[october]

On 6/24/2023 at 2:16 PM, adamstrange said:

I take it all back.

It's fine, not like I remembered either. That's what happens when your brain is clouded by a decade or two worth of citra hops and bong resin. 

[Robot Man]

On 6/24/2023 at 9:42 AM, action1kid said:

I remember Gary 

Here is Gary (in black shirt) in his booth at the SDCC. I can't remember the two guys on the left. 

[adamstrange]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Robot Man said:

Here is Gary (in black shirt) in his booth at the SDCC. I can't remember the two guys on the left. 

Michael Naimen is the tall one in the middle.

[DanCooper]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Robot Man said:

I can't remember the two guys on the left. 

Believe that is Disney collector Dave Yaruss next to Naiman on the left

[Robot Man]

A follow up to the discussion here about this book. I had a nice conversation with Redbeard about it this morning. I was wrong. Sometimes facts get blurred in the passage of time.

Chain of ownership:  Church to Chuck, to Geppi, to Snyder, to Redbeard, to Bechara, to ?

Snyder told Ron that DA’s copy was a little higher technical grade but the MH was much brighter.

So there you have it straight from the horses’s mouth. Was fun catching catching up with him. 

[Aman619]

So, “a little higher” means a 9.0?

[lou_fine]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:57 AM, Robot Man said:

Who color touched it? It went from Edgar to Chuck, to Redbeard and then to Bechara. None of which (to the best of my knowledge) did anything to it.

It is just WRONG to do anything to a historical artifact like this. 

Wasn't this back in the days from the late 70's and very early 80's when restoration was seen as adding value to an unrestored book to some point above its oringinal unrestored grade but lower than its new higher grade if it was unrestored?  

I guess this kind of shows how much we've learned over the decades as I believe there's an almost countless number of months now for books just waiting to go through the so-called undisclosed "maximization of potential" process at CCS before they get forwarded over to CGC for grading and slabbing.    

[adamstrange]

On 6/24/2023 at 11:04 AM, action1kid said:

I remember word circulating 30 years ago that it had colortouch .

 

On 10/12/2023 at 6:35 PM, Robot Man said:

Chain of ownership:  Church to Chuck, to Geppi, to Snyder, to Redbeard, to Bechara, to ?

[lou_fine]

On 6/24/2023 at 12:13 PM, MrBedrock said:

On 6/24/2023 at 9:16 AM, RareHighGrade said:

How does a book that's been resubmitted retain its original CGC number?  I've seen countless examples of "improved" books getting a new number.

Re-evaluation by CGC prior to cracking and regrading.

Now this is rather enlightening as it's the first time that I've heard that a book can be graded while still encased in a CGC holder, as I always thought you had to have the actual book in hand for a full examination of the entire book before it can be properly and accurately graded.    

[Aman619]

Ugh.  Cmon, stop playing with words.  A book isn’t GRADED while still slabbed, but it can be evaluated for upgrade potential.  Many times the grade wont improve due to unseen defects… 

 

as for it being WRONG to touch a comic of “historic importance”  remember that it was just a funny book back then.  A handful of people felt it was worth a significant amount of money, but that it.  And it was never assured that it would BE the holy grail copy, in part because there was a good chance there were better copies out there… and there was at least one such that it’s owner sold it and kept that better one.  Many collectors == alone at hole bothered by a cover defect == would do a little color touch to “fix” a small area of color loss and be happy with the improvement!  These moments of madness when extremely minor, were ultimately seen by CGC as unfortunate lapses of judgement and given a label note and not a purple label.

[buttock]

On 10/12/2023 at 8:47 PM, Aman619 said:

So, “a little higher” means a 9.0?

I think it (the Church) initially graded as 8.0 and was bumped to 8.5.  In these days of "improvement" DA could be kicking himself as the Church could now technically be nicer.  

[action1kid]

According to DA’s eye it probably wasn’t better. And I’ll bet his copy has no glue or color touch

Edited October 13, 2023 by action1kid

[Aman619]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:33 AM, buttock said:

I think it (the Church) initially graded as 8.0 and was bumped to 8.5.  In these days of "improvement" DA could be kicking himself as the Church could now technically be nicer.  

in an arms race, when your opponent upgrades, just do the same... or better, to maintain your place in line.

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/12/2023 at 6:35 PM, Robot Man said:

A follow up to the discussion here about this book. I had a nice conversation with Redbeard about it this morning. I was wrong. Sometimes facts get blurred in the passage of time.

Chain of ownership:  Church to Chuck, to Geppi, to Snyder, to Redbeard, to Bechara, to ?

Snyder told Ron that DA’s copy was a little higher technical grade but the MH was much brighter.

So there you have it straight from the horses’s mouth. Was fun catching catching up with him. 

My money is on Snyder as the vandal who added color touch to the book.

[jimbo_7071]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:39 AM, Aman619 said:

 Many collectors == alone at hole bothered by a cover defect == would do a little color touch to “fix” a small area of color loss and be happy with the improvement!  These moments of madness when extremely minor, were ultimately seen by CGC as unfortunate lapses of judgement and given a label note and not a purple label.

It is obscene that a book with color touch is not in a PLOD. The significant number of Church books with color touch is the only reason for that. Money talks.

Edited October 15, 2023 by jimbo_7071

[lou_fine]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:39 AM, Aman619 said:

Ugh.  Cmon, stop playing with words.  A book isn’t GRADED while still slabbed, but it can be evaluated for upgrade potential.  Many times the grade wont improve due to unseen defects… 

Actually, I believe it is really more of a labelling error more than anything else that this regraded CGC 8.5 Church copy of Supes 1 would have the same certification number as when it was first graded as a CGC 8.0 graded copy.  

No real surprise and pretty much in line with business practices in general when it comes to preferential treatment and as such, not a big deal from my POV.  In our case here, probably standard for "special" books, "special" collections, or for submittors with the right connections to have their books reviewed and evaluated for potential upgrade by CGC personnel that is above the pay grade of your regular CGC grader. The only thing here is that a book which has been successfully regraded to a different grade would be issued with a new certification number, while one that was not successful would simply go through the reholdering process and be given the same original certification number.  Hence, from what I can see here, most likely nothing more than a labelling error and another book slabbed incorrectly, albeit a much higher profile one, that should have been caught during the QC process.    

 

On 10/13/2023 at 6:39 AM, Aman619 said:

Many collectors == alone at hole bothered by a cover defect == would do a little color touch to “fix” a small area of color loss and be happy with the improvement!  These moments of madness when extremely minor, were ultimately seen by CGC as unfortunate lapses of judgement and given a label note and not a purple label.

From when these Church books came to market, weren't they at a time when restoration was seen as adding value to an unrestored book?  So, if you consider these isolated extremely minor restoration as moments of madness and unfortunate lapses of judgement when it was deemed to be adding value to a book at the time, what would you characterize today as when submittors are banging down the doors of CCS and waiting countless months to get their books worked on before they get graded in order to pump up the grade and add value to the book?  

[Aman619]

No. The “restoration is okay” period was a decade later once Sothebys began their auctions.  Now that comics were in a big time worldwide renowned auction house, where most other collectibles allow restoration, and Susan was a very well respected and classically trained restorer, and well known but the grading committee, restoration gained support as inevitable in our hobby.  For a while….  One could actually but a beater key, pay for restoration, and flip it for a profit.  For a while anyway. 
 

the isolated moments I refer to are collectors admiring their almost perfect copies, and getting a marker to fill in a few tiny spots here and there.  It was a temptation that seemed to have no consequences cause who cared what you did with your own comic book. And, in a larger sense, hardly anyone cared about comic books in general. They’re were worth a fraction of what they are now. Of course some dealers worked their books for immediate profit too, but I was talking about how John alone with his Church treasures, couldn’t resist making them more perfect.  Good thing he didn’t hit them all!

[DanCooper]

When CGC first open it's doors in Parsippany, New Jersey, Jon Berk, myself and some other collectors were invited out to their facilities. CGC wanted to get a collector's perspective and feedback on the certification process.

The subject of Mile Highs with small amounts of color touch and/or glue was brought up. It was highly debatable topic between the collectors and CGC. The collectors felt the books should be treated no differently for restoration, whether it was a Mile High or some nondescript book from the 1960s or 70s. Books should be in purple, restored slabs.

CGC wanted those Mile Highs, with small amounts of restoration, in blue labels from the get go. Their sentiment was the books were from a historic collection and the work done was minimal. The common ground was that the books, at least, needed to have what was done on the label, whether it was blue or purple.

[Robot Man]

Comics either have restoration or they don’t. Wasn’t that a big reason CGC became into existence?

A woman can’t be partially pregnant…

[jimjum12]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:20 AM, Robot Man said:

Comics either have restoration or they don’t. Wasn’t that a big reason CGC became into existence?

A woman can’t be partially pregnant…

You were on your A-Game back then and took full advantage of the strong local and regional markets in your area. Many regions of the Country had weak or non-existent collector's networks and mail order was the only way. By the late 90's mail order grading had become very inadequate on a large scale. CGC's grading restored confidence to mail order again. The slab was also touted as a protective holder to minimize damage. It was impressive and revolutionary to me at the time. My first was an FF 73 in CGC 8.0 and set me back $50.Truth be told, it looked almost Near Mint, but according to the label had "Writing on page 14". GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited October 14, 2023 by jimjum12