Is the writer’s strike going to break the back of SDCC? 3 3

[wiparker824]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:42 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Like I said, stripping all nuance and context from the discussion.

If you say so.

[musicmeta]

I would love to go to SDCC "one" time just to experience it and soak it all in.   Just getting tickets is hard and then like other posts have mentioned, the cost of getting there, hotel, food and transportation is expensive. 
Maybe I will just plan to go a few years from now and just save up and try to get tickets somehow and make it happen.....Just so expensive to attend....for me anyway.

[Mystafo]

On 7/11/2023 at 10:31 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

You claimed that GotG Vol. 2 is "actually good".

Hey, I liked GOTG 2 you cackling maniac!

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:24 PM, Mystafo said:

Hey, I liked GOTG 2 you cackling maniac!

If you took those eye patches off you might feel differently.

[Mystafo]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:12 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If you took those eye patches off you might feel differently.

Hadn't lost them yet (gouged them out after captain marvel )!

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mystafo
the peepers, that is.

[buttock]

On 7/11/2023 at 10:38 AM, wiparker824 said:

The subject at hand was whether people were fatigued by superhero movies, and box office is in fact a way to show that. And in my opinion the reason GOTG3 and Into the Spiderverse are doing better in the BO compared to Morbius and the Flash is largely because those films were significantly better. I don’t think that’s really that controversial of a take but if you do okay. 

 

On 7/11/2023 at 10:42 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Like I said, stripping all nuance and context from the discussion.

This is proof that people will argue about literally anything on the internet. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/11/2023 at 2:35 PM, buttock said:

This is proof that people will __________ about literally anything on the internet. 

FTFY.

[squidmo2000]

[Cocomonkey]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:57 PM, musicmeta said:

I would love to go to SDCC "one" time just to experience it and soak it all in.   Just getting tickets is hard and then like other posts have mentioned, the cost of getting there, hotel, food and transportation is expensive. 
Maybe I will just plan to go a few years from now and just save up and try to get tickets somehow and make it happen.....Just so expensive to attend....for me anyway.

That's me this year...given how SDCC doesn't empty any main rooms like NYCC, I wasn't planning on hitting most of the major panels that backed out anyway, but just making the most of it. Never planning to do it again, so just going to enjoy what there is to enjoy.

[musicmeta]

On 7/12/2023 at 8:26 AM, Cocomonkey said:

That's me this year...given how SDCC doesn't empty any main rooms like NYCC, I wasn't planning on hitting most of the major panels that backed out anyway, but just making the most of it. Never planning to do it again, so just going to enjoy what there is to enjoy.

I hope you have a great time there and get what you came for.  Enjoy!!! 

[Pixx_L]

On 6/29/2023 at 1:54 PM, KingOfRulers said:

I view Avengers: Endgame as our peak. We've been fortunate to experience the golden age of the superhero. 2008-2019 was the heyday for the MCU, but I'd say ever since X-Men came out in 2000, our once sub-culture has become mass appeal, popular culture. 2008-2019 was an amazing run. Not every movie was a winner, but even so, it was what so many of us dreamed about for years. At this point, we're four years beyond Avengers: Endgame (it's hard to believe it's been that long). I think the average person who isn't a comic book fan, but got loved going to see all the Marvel movies over the years, is possibly burned out. Been there, done that at this point.

As to what this means for SDCC...probably nothing for quite a while. I think SDCC is large and high profile enough to bring in full capacity numbers for quite a while, even if general interest in fandom declines.

I owned and operated several large comic conventions from 2010-2021. None as big as SDCC, but at the 40,000-50,000 attendee level. Towards the end of our run, we were very nervous about general public's comic con fatigue. Another, "been there, done that" situation. But in our case, not towards interest in Marvel movies and nerd culture, but instead interest in comic conventions. I think the nerd culture boom that we've had the last 15 years was fueled by popularity of Marvel movies, Star Wars movies, Walking Dead, Game of Thrones and the general prevalence of properties that were closely associated with events such as comic conventions. It's one reason why so many comic conventions (including my own) sprouted up everywhere and grew so large. At this moment in time, I see the general public as bored with the MCU, Star Wars etc, and I see that boredom as a threat to the viability of regional-level comic conventions. While SDCC isn't immune in the longterm, I see it as pretty resistant to that fatigue.

I think the biggest threat to Comic-cons these days as someone that is mostly selling off my collection on ebay but still interested in what goes on in comics (at a reading/creative level) is the entry price for most shows. I grew up in Florida going to local conventions that were $5 bucks to enter and Mega-con which they did two of at the time (a smaller one in Tampa and the yearly larger one in Orlando). Given the scale of Mega-Con then for the ticket price it was an easy 'yes' price even factoring in a hotel stay for a night. Nowadays (being in Ohio) the admission fee alone for a day pass is just too high (for the shows around me) relative to what I may actually think is exciting or valuable  to see. I don't really care about Movie and TV show celebrities if that's the justification for bumping ticket prices to $50 a day or more. CXC in Columbus is probably the only show I'm interested in traveling to and it's focused squarely on comic creators. Admission is free leaving me more money to put in the hands of the creators trying to scratch out a living versus whatever corporate entity now took over the previous corporate entity of Wizard World.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Pixx_L

[Nick Furious]

On 7/17/2023 at 8:15 PM, Pixx_L said:

I think the biggest threat to Comic-cons these days as someone that is mostly selling off my collection on ebay but still interested in what goes on in comics (at a reading/creative level) is the entry price for most shows

That's just a function of demand.  High admission prices are no more a threat to Convention promoters than high rents are a threat to landlords.  They charge what the market will bear.  If people feel they got their money's worth they will keep paying it.   

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

SDCC imploded when MHC ceased to attend.

Of course, wholly unrelated to SDCC, MHS said that due to never ending natural disasters comic books are being lost at, basically, levels never imagined and, thus, prices will increase. Accordingly, MHC is now charging $2500 for a FN/6.0 copy of Worthless Comic #1. One is, I will write, perhaps not fortunate to have such deal on said comic book at 60% off.

Perhaps MHC will provide proof of the loss of such vast quantities of comic books to natural disasters.

[KingOfRulers]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:15 PM, Pixx_L said:

I think the biggest threat to Comic-cons these days as someone that is mostly selling off my collection on ebay but still interested in what goes on in comics (at a reading/creative level) is the entry price for most shows. I grew up in Florida going to local conventions that were $5 bucks to enter and Mega-con which they did two of at the time (a smaller one in Tampa and the yearly larger one in Orlando). Given the scale of Mega-Con then for the ticket price it was an easy 'yes' price even factoring in a hotel stay for a night. Nowadays (being in Ohio) the admission fee alone for a day pass is just too high (for the shows around me) relative to what I may actually think is exciting or valuable  to see. I don't really care about Movie and TV show celebrities if that's the justification for bumping ticket prices to $50 a day or more. CXC in Columbus is probably the only show I'm interested in traveling to and it's focused squarely on comic creators. Admission is free leaving me more money to put in the hands of the creators trying to scratch out a living versus whatever corporate entity now took over the previous corporate entity of Wizard World.

I could write a book on the comic con business. In short, comic book collectors are not a large enough fanbase to support a large-scale comic convention. I say this having experienced both sides of the coin. It's evident by merely looking at the landscape for comic conventions. The largest comic-centric convention in the U.S. is Heroes Con, with what Google tells me has a record attendance of 40,000 set in 2016. After Heroes Con, what other comic centric convention comes remotely close to Heroes? I can't think of any comic-centric event that is anywhere close to those attendance numbers. Comic-centric events are plentiful all around the U.S., but the attendance is usually in the 500-1,500 attendee range. I can't think of a single comic-centric event that even touches 5,000 attendees, other than Heroes.

If you look at the convention landscape for comic cons that are really "pop-culture" and nerd-culture conventions, then you'll find tons of events that hit 40,000 attendees and more. Plenty of 5,000, 10,000, 50,000, 75,000 attendees and more conventions that are in every major U.S. city, often times with multiple events within the same city drawing those numbers. These are often events that have only been around for 10 years and get these numbers, whereas it took Heroes Con 35 years to get to 40k.

As a convention goer, I would not have attended the conventions I owned as I don't like the hassle that comes with huge crowds. The admission price to my conventions would've been too high. The number of comic book dealers we had would've appeared too few in number. I much prefer going to smaller shows where a high percentage of the vendors are comic book dealers, the crowds are small, the parking is easy, and the admission is relatively low.

As a convention owner, in my experience, hardcore comic book collectors (such as myself) are perhaps the worst group to cater to. The demographic is small in number, unwilling to spend on admission (often don't pay as they are well connected and get free dealer passes), expensive customers to acquire, and tend to complain more than anyone else. Why bother going through the effort and investment to attract them? I can tell you that in large part, it was pure emotion and respect for the world of comics that led us to continue the effort. We didn't want to be "sellouts" to the term "comic con". As hardcore comic guys ourselves, we genuinely care about the longevity of comics. But from a business standpoint, I regret to inform you that comic collectors are the worst and are money losers for comic cons.

Edited July 18, 2023 by KingOfRulers

[Bumble Kitty]

On 7/18/2023 at 7:50 AM, KingOfRulers said:

As a convention owner, in my experience, hardcore comic book collectors (such as myself) are perhaps the worst group to cater to. The demographic is small in number, unwilling to spend on admission (often don't pay as they are well connected and get free dealer passes), expensive customers to acquire, and tend to complain more than anyone else. Why bother going through the effort and investment to attract them? I can tell you that in large part, it was pure emotion and respect for the world of comics that led us to continue the effort. We didn't want to be "sellouts" to the term "comic con". As hardcore comic guys ourselves, we genuinely care about the longevity of comics. But from a business standpoint, I regret to inform you that comic collectors are the worst and are money losers for comic cons.

No need for me to add anything to this.  This paragraph says it all. 

[KingOfRulers]

I'll add that there is a "chicken and egg" dynamic as it relates to comic book buyers and comic book dealers. We'd typically get 40,000+ attendees at our flagship conventions. Curmudgeonly dealers would complain, "Nobody is buying comics." Curmudgeonly attendees would complain, "Not enough comic dealers." Some dealers would stop setting up because no buyers. Some attendees would stop attending because not enough comic dealers. How do we get more comic dealers without more comic buyers? How do we get more comic buyers without more comic dealers? One of the problems that was growing in severity as time progressed, and one of the multitude of reasons that I'm glad we sold the conventions and got out of the event business.

The comic collector attendee is a simple beast in terms of determining what they want. There's really only two "draws" for comic book collectors to attend a comic con: 1) comic dealers, 2) guest comic creators. I'd like to speak to #2.

Building a comic creator guest list is one of the single most difficult, time consuming, and expensive aspects of the entire comic convention enterprise. In my previous post I said that the comic collector attendee costs so much to acquire, are relatively few in number, complains the most, and as a result isn't logically worth the effort to cater to; guest comic creators is a major reason why.

Comic creators are difficult and time consuming to book, expensive to book, and generally very few people care about a given creator. I'll skip over the "difficulty and time aspect" of the chore for now. Generally speaking, we'd have around 25 comic creator guests per event. Some creators charge an appearance fee, but most didn't. All of them would require their airfare and hotel stay be covered. Additionally, they often had a +1 (husband/wife, helper etc), which also required airfare, and possibly an additional hotel room stay. Per diem was common, but not always required. Car service was common, but not always required. On average, I figured a comic creator would cost us $1,250 each in travel expenses. Plus whatever appearance fees some of them might charge. For 25 creators, that's $31,250 just in travel. Call it another $10,000 in various appearance fees and per diems; now we're at $41,250. And that doesn't include the amount we paid for each of their skirted tables, chairs, carpeting for the guest artist area of the convention hall, and employees we dedicated to staffing the area. Call it $50,000 in total for our 25 comic creator guest list.

Our general admission was $30-$40 per day (depending upon the day), or $60 for a 3-day pass. Assume an average ticket sale price of $40. That being the premise, our wonderful list of guest comic creators would have to pull in 1,250 attendees for us to merely break even on their appearances. And a lot of comic collector attendees would find a way to get into the convention without paying anything, so who knows what the real breakeven number was. I have no empirical evidence to say whether our investment was financially worth it or not, but if I'm speaking from my gut instinct I'd say, "No way in hell it was."

As a comic book guy, I was always hanging around the comic creators. That's what I cared about. I loved talking to them, getting sketches, etc. That was my world and I loved it. Hanging around in that area, I'd observe the area in an attempt to determine its success. No way do I think we were pulling in 1,250 attendees by way of our comic creators in attendance, that we would have otherwise not captured. In 11 years of running conventions, the only creators that generated enough interest to draw large lines that rivaled the lines (50 or more attendees at a time) we were getting in the celebrity signing area were: George Perez, Bruce Timm, and Jim Starlin. Honorable mention for Steranko. Other creators had lines sometimes, but 5, 10, or 20 people. 30 attendees at any given time would be a very strong line for a comic guest. Most of the time, it was no line, no wait. Of our bustling 40,000 attendance, I'd say maybe 500-750 cared about comic book creators. And that might be a generous estimate.

On the other hand, we could book a Dragon Ball Z voice actor for a $3,500 "guarantee" (meaning we could recoup all $3,500 of their appearance fee through autograph and photo-op sales). This is in comparison to a comic creator's "appearance fee" which was a flat fee that we could not recoup. Aforementioned Dragon Ball Z voice actor's line would be at full capacity all weekend, serving 1,250 attendees.

Edited July 18, 2023 by KingOfRulers

[Beastfeast]

On 7/18/2023 at 2:31 PM, KingOfRulers said:

I'll add that there is a "chicken and egg" dynamic as it relates to comic book buyers and comic book dealers. We'd typically get 40,000+ attendees at our flagship conventions. Curmudgeonly dealers would complain, "Nobody is buying comics." Curmudgeonly attendees would complain, "Not enough comic dealers." Some dealers would stop setting up because no buyers. Some attendees would stop attending because not enough comic dealers. How do we get more comic dealers without more comic buyers? How do we get more comic buyers without more comic dealers? One of the problems that was growing in severity as time progressed, and one of the multitude of reasons that I'm glad we sold the conventions and got out of the event business.

The comic collector attendee is a simple beast in terms of determining what they want. There's really only two "draws" for comic book collectors to attend a comic con: 1) comic dealers, 2) guest comic creators. I'd like to speak to #2.

Building a comic creator guest list is one of the single most difficult, time consuming, and expensive aspects of the entire comic convention enterprise. In my previous post I said that the comic collector attendee costs so much to acquire, are relatively few in number, complains the most, and as a result isn't logically worth the effort to cater to; guest comic creators is a major reason why.

Comic creators are difficult and time consuming to book, expensive to book, and generally very few people care about a given creator. I'll skip over the "difficulty and time aspect" of the chore for now. Generally speaking, we'd have around 25 comic creator guests per event. Some creators charge an appearance fee, but most didn't. All of them would require their airfare and hotel stay be covered. Additionally, they often had a +1 (husband/wife, helper etc), which also required airfare, and possibly an additional hotel room stay. Per diem was common, but not always required. Car service was common, but not always required. On average, I figured a comic creator would cost us $1,250 each in travel expenses. Plus whatever appearance fees some of them might charge. For 25 creators, that's $31,250 just in travel. Call it another $10,000 in various appearance fees and per diems; now we're at $41,250. And that doesn't include the amount we paid for each of their skirted tables, chairs, carpeting for the guest artist area of the convention hall, and employees we dedicated to staffing the area. Call it $50,000 in total for our 25 comic creator guest list.

Our general admission was $30-$40 per day (depending upon the day), or $60 for a 3-day pass. Assume an average ticket sale price of $40. That being the premise, our wonderful list of guest comic creators would have to pull in 1,250 attendees for us to merely break even on their appearances. And a lot of comic collector attendees would find a way to get into the convention without paying anything, so who knows what the real breakeven number was. I have no empirical evidence to say whether our investment was financially worth it or not, but if I'm speaking from my gut instinct I'd say, "No way in hell it was."

As a comic book guy, I was always hanging around the comic creators. That's what I cared about. I loved talking to them, getting sketches, etc. That was my world and I loved it. Hanging around in that area, I'd observe the area in an attempt to determine its success. No way do I think we were pulling in 1,250 attendees by way of our comic creators in attendance, that we would have otherwise not captured. In 11 years of running conventions, the only creators that generated enough interest to draw large lines that rivaled the lines (50 or more attendees at a time) we were getting in the celebrity signing area were: George Perez, Bruce Timm, and Jim Starlin. Honorable mention for Steranko. Other creators had lines sometimes, but 5, 10, or 20 people. 30 attendees at any given time would be a very strong line for a comic guest. Most of the time, it was no line, no wait. Of our bustling 40,000 attendance, I'd say maybe 500-750 cared about comic book creators. And that might be a generous estimate.

On the other hand, we could book a Dragon Ball Z voice actor for a $3,500 "guarantee" (meaning we could recoup all $3,500 of their appearance fee through autograph and photo-op sales). This is in comparison to a comic creator's "appearance fee" which was a flat fee that we could not recoup. Aforementioned Dragon Ball Z voice actor's line would be at full capacity all weekend, serving 1,250 attendees.

Absolutely great insight. Love this inside-baseball stuff. 

[MisterMR]

I live in and am from San Diego. I’ve been going to SDCC every year since 1992. Movie/tv panels are nice but for me and many people they have NEVER been the overall focus or deciding factor for going to SDCC. Like others have mentioned, there’s too much other stuff going on for this to make a huge dent. 

[Buzzetta]

On 6/29/2023 at 12:19 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Sounds like the perfect storm for another convention to come in and cater to the events that SDCC is too big to concern themselves with.

It already has.

Hasbro bailed on NYCC almost a decade ago, instead for a time opting to rent space in a hotel suite to invite reporters to that instead of the Javits.  Many other retailers have followed suit such as Lego and other toy companies.  It became too cost prohibitive.   What happened?  Lego, Hasbro and now ever Marvel / Disney are now gravitating away from SDCC.  They have come to the conclusion that it is more cost effective to host their own cons where they reach fans over various streaming platforms.  

Hasbro now hosts Hasbro Pulsecon, Disney has a biennial con called D23.  Lego hosted it's own con last year to introduce new product but is going to SDCC this year.   A lot of these companies are experimenting with new venues and are starting to realize that SDCC needs them more than they need SDCC.  Hasbro has done VERY well with it's streaming platforms.  For example in June, every week they introduced new GI Joe product.  During May they hosted their own May the 4th Hasbro con for. Star Wars products.  There is fan interaction through live question and answers, they show off product and then offer those who are members to Hasbro pulse, advance purchase opportunities to drive up subscriptions while the general public has to wait an hour for their "after hours" opportunity. 

As big cons start to dissipate smaller venues and online streaming will take its place. 

 

[Nick Furious]

On 7/18/2023 at 8:18 PM, Buzzetta said:

As big cons start to dissipate smaller venues and online streaming will take its place.

I wonder if we might see a pattern emerge here where the broader scope mega-cons act as incubators for single-scope cons to emerge from.  Maybe a Disney, Lego or Hasbro focused community becomes too large (and too intense) to be properly served at a multi-scope convention, causing those brands go off on their own.  I wonder if they might be replaced by a lesser-known product or franchise that does benefit from the exposure to a multi-scope con audience.