Who was the greatest overall Golden Age comic book artist? 4 4

[Captainwonder]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:33 PM, bronze johnny said:

The “Raboy Superman” would have been the greatest rendition of the Golden Age Superhero followed by the “Baker Wonder Woman.” Just imagine how amazing they would have been…

I’d have loved his Wonder Woman!

[Readcomix]

Such a rich palette of great choices, and perspectives to argue from! But after reading four pages of thread from a diverse array of boardies all of whom I know are well-schooled on the topic of GA artists, I keep coming back to an influence camp consisting of Kirby/Barks/Eisner vs a draftsmanship camp of Fine, Crandall, Wood. There’s no one right answer, though I think that if you define the term of “greatest”  as most influential, then that bucket is easiest to approach consensus on. 
Then again, Joe Sinnott once said to me that when he was at the Hogarth School, and early in his career, most of the guys looked up to Lou Fine for his draftsmanship. Joe doesn’t get us all the way to the roots of the Golden Age, but he goes pretty far back.

And if you asked me favorites, like many others I’d also rattle off Schomburg, Baker, Frazetta, O’Mealia, Flessel, Everett, Raboy and I’ve probably left off many.

Two very tangential thoughts: his run was even shorter than Baker’s, I believe, but Joe Maneely did some beautiful stuff.

And I recently picked up a late-run issue of My Own Romance and paged through it to enjoy the Baker stories. After the last page of the first Baker story, when I flipped the page to the next story in the issue, I was blown away, and thought “Who the heck is this??” It was Al Williamson. 

[PopKulture]

On 8/9/2023 at 6:19 AM, sfcityduck said:

I am bit sad at the notion we would assess the greatness of a comic artist just on covers.

This.  

[adamstrange]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:33 PM, bronze johnny said:

 the “Baker Wonder Woman.” Just imagine how amazing they would have been…

We got Phantom Lady so I'm not sure we missed out much by not getting his version of WW.

[Cat-Man_America]

On 8/9/2023 at 9:12 AM, Robot Man said:

Apples to oranges…

Schomburg’s work is very busy and somewhat “cartoony”. Raboy’s work is more sedate and “illustrative”.

Both are masters and deserve to be on the list. I know I spend a lot more time looking at Schomburg’s work and less on Raboy’s.

Personal preference…

...and the occasional tomato or tuh-mah-toe.  (I'm, teasing, and just playing ketchup) 

We're both in agreement except in respect to nuance. I'd never describe Schomburg's work as "cartoony" and while his pen/ink work is often wildly busy, he never loses his center of interest. Other artists might turn out a busy cover that completely loses the central character(s) or focus, not Alex.

Alex's style lent itself to occasional whimsy or clever observation, adding caricatures or humorous reactions in illustrations to draw in the viewer. But he had far less of an exaggerated style than cartoon inspired artists like Jack Cole (on the high end) or Gill Fox (on the lower end).  Like you say, Raboy was indeed a very stylized illustrator, to my way of thinking in the vein of Rubimor (Ruben Moreira), Reed Crandall or Jack Binder (although Binder did utilize whimsy on occasion in his illustrations reminiscent of Windsor McCay's creative genius from my POV).

While I don't agree with every brilliant philosophical utterance of the late great Stan Lee, he did make an astute observation (excelsior!) in suggesting that Alex Schomburg was the Norman Rockwell of comics.  Not everyone considered Rockwell the greatest American painter or even the best commercial artist, but he was prolific, well loved & recognized as America's greatest portrayer of human reaction and cover composition.

[bronze johnny]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:00 AM, adamstrange said:

We got Phantom Lady so I'm not sure we missed out much by not getting his version of WW.

I look at Adam Hughes modern version of Wonder Woman and can’t help but wonder. Would also have loved to see the Baker Catwoman. Giving a shout out to Kintsler here because he achieved immortality as one of the great American Artists of the 20th Century, which something none of the others mentioned here ever did. Kintsler was special. 

[bronze johnny]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:40 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

...and the occasional tomato or tuh-mah-toe.  (I'm, teasing, and just playing ketchup) 

We're both in agreement except in respect to nuance. I'd never describe Schomburg's work as "cartoony" and while his pen/ink work is often wildly busy, he never loses his center of interest. Other artists might turn out a busy cover that completely loses the central character(s) or focus, not Alex.

Alex's style lent itself to occasional whimsy or clever observation, adding caricatures or humorous reactions in illustrations to draw in the viewer. But he had far less of an exaggerated style than cartoon inspired artists like Jack Cole (on the high end) or Gill Fox (on the lower end).  Like you say, Raboy was indeed a very stylized illustrator, to my way of thinking in the vein of Rubimor (Ruben Moreira), Reed Crandall or Jack Binder (although Binder did utilize whimsy on occasion in his illustrations reminiscent of Windsor McCay's creative genius from my POV).

While I don't agree with every brilliant philosophical utterance of the late great Stan Lee, he did make an astute observation (excelsior!) in suggesting that Alex Schomburg was the Norman Rockwell of comics.  Not everyone considered Rockwell the greatest American painter or even the best commercial artist, but he was prolific, well loved & recognized as America's greatest portrayer of human reaction and cover composition.

There’s no comparison to Raboy, who could do everything (except make deadlines!) better than Schomberg. It’s not a knock on Schomberg.  Schomberg was great and his Richard Scarry “Busytown” covers are classic. William James was the more famous American Philosopher of American Pragmatism but he couldn’t compare to Charles Sanders Pearce - the true genius of Pragmatism. Mac was simply on a different plane. 

[Robot Man]

Although I wouldn’t put him at the top of the list, I would also mention Jack Davis. Being a MAD man, I’m a little biased I guess. Davis worked for several publishers illustrating a wide range of genres. Both covers and interior art. He had a long career and continued into commercial art very sucessfuly.

[Captainwonder]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:00 AM, adamstrange said:

We got Phantom Lady so I'm not sure we missed out much by not getting his version of WW.

I do love the Phantom Lady books but I’d still like to see his WW! 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 8/10/2023 at 7:22 AM, bronze johnny said:

There’s no comparison to Raboy, who could do everything (except make deadlines!) better than Schomberg. It’s not a knock on Schomberg.  Schomberg was great and his Richard Scarry “Busytown” covers are classic. William James was the more famous American Philosopher of American Pragmatism but he couldn’t compare to Charles Sanders Pearce - the true genius of Pragmatism. Mac was simply on a different plane. 

It's Schomburg ...or Xela, reversing Alex in his airbrushed alias. Alas, comparisons are inevitable, but they merely had different styles; in this instance, I don't consider one artist better than the other (like Froggy, they're just different -- extra points if you can figure out that reference).

"Deadlines" was the name of the game for comic publishers.  What Schomburg could do that Mac apparently had difficulty with was meeting tight schedules under pressure, consistently. But in addition to meeting tough deadlines, he even branched out to different publishers! Schomburg was able to speed up or slow down his craft to produce more deliberate, contemplative painted work of increased complexity for magazines and book cover dust jackets which paid a premium for finished paintings.  

To be absolutely clear, I love Raboy's work, especially the technical perfection of it. Most of his best covers look posed and poised, like his hero is advertising some undisclosed hair product. You almost expect an ad inside for this elusive product the publisher has been keeping secret.

To put it another way, Schomburg's work looks like gladiatorial combat captured in motion at the moment of greatest tension or mayhem, while Raboy's work looks like a perfectly timed and posed snapshot by the hero's publicity team who were traveling along with him.  Raboy's smiling heroes were rarely if ever under any kind of stress or if they were they never let it show. In the next scene you'd expect the hero to be making a public appearance with an autograph line forming.

In their own wheelhouses each artist had impressive success. Raboy went on to newspaper comics (Flash Gordon) and lucretive advertising work; Schomburg continued between cover work in pulps, digests, magazine covers and hard cover dust jackets.  

After his tenure with Fawcett Raboy produced the beautifully rendered albeit short lived Green Lama series at the end of WWII, then he seemed to leave comic books behind focusing primarily on Sunday comics and advertising work. Sadly he passed too young in the early 1960's, so it's impossible to know whether he'd have had a comic book renaissance. Schomburg periodically revisited comics and SF becoming a fan favorite into the 1970's and 80's.  

Sorry, must be the caffeine! 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Cat-Man_America
Coffee ...and later ale!

[bronze johnny]

On 8/10/2023 at 4:21 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

It's Schomburg ...or Xela, reversing Alex in his airbrushed alias. Alas, comparisons are inevitable, but they merely had different styles; in this instance, I don't consider one artist better than the other (like Froggy, they're just different -- extra points if you can figure out that reference).

"Deadlines" was the name of the game for comic publishers.  What Schomburg could do that Mac apparently had difficulty with was meeting tight schedules under pressure, consistently. But in addition to meeting tough deadlines ...even branching out to different publishers..., Schomburg was able to slow down and produce more deliberate, contemplative painted work of different style and complexity for magazines and book cover dustjackets which paid a premium for finished paintings.  

To be absolutely clear, I love Raboy's work, especially the technical perfection of it. Most of his best covers look posed and poised, like his hero is advertising some undisclosed hair product that every boy should want. You almost expect an ad inside for this elusive product the publisher has been keeping secret.

To put it another way, Schomburg's work looks like gladiatorial combat captured in motion at the moment of greatest tension or mayhem, while Raboy's work looks like a perfectly timed and posed snapshot by a publicity team traveling along with the hero, who's rarely if ever under any kind of stress or if so, doesn't let it show. In the next scene you expect the hero in a public appearance with an autograph line forming.

In their own wheelhouses each had impressive success. Raboy went on to newspaper comics (Flash Gordon) and lucretive advertising work; Schomburg continued between cover work in pulps, digests, magazine covers and hard cover dust jackets.  

After his tenure with Fawcett Raboy produced the beautifully rendered albeit short lived Green Lama series at the end of WWII, then he seemed to leave comic books behind focusing primarily on Sunday comics and advertising work. Sadly he passed too young in the early 1960's, so it's impossible to know whether he'd have had a comic book renaissance. Schomburg periodically revisited comics and SF becoming a fan favorite into the 70's and 80's.  

Sorry, must be the caffeine! 

I can’t argue with this and always enjoy your insight. That said, the Golden Age is the era when the superhero dominated the newsstands and no one drew them better than Mac. Schomberg did great covers and he will forever be known for this. Working for Timely as a cover artist has also given Schomberg a tremendous advantage never afforded to Mac. Raboy’s legacy is still being defined and will only grow as more people discover his art. Like Baker’s growing standing in the history of the medium and his connection to GGA and the Romance genre that rose along with Crime Comics (to later be joined by horror comics) to supersede the superhero genre quickly at the beginning of the postwar era, it’s only a matter of time before Raboy takes his place as the greatest artist of the World War 2 period and the coinciding time of the dominant superhero comic book that started with Action Comics 1. Raboy was a perfectionist, and it was a time consuming goal that often caused his missing deadlines. Still, it was worth it for those who see the finished product that turned out to be the closest any artwork got to Golden Age perfection. There wouldn’t be any debate about this if Mac had drawn the winner of the lawsuit’s superhero…”The Raboy Superman!”

[Sarg]

OK, so the original question was too broad. What if we tighten the qualifications to only include the following criteria:

- the artist must have worked for a significant period of time during the Golden Age on commercial newsstand comics (at least eight years)

- the artist must have created, co-created, or significantly shaped a major character, one that is still recognized by comic fans today

- drew covers AND interiors, emphasizing interiors

- drew in a realistic or semi-realistic style (no funny animals)

I think that we are left with no other choice than .... drumroll please ... BILL EVERETT. Take a bow, Bill!

[Sarg]

Of course, Bill's qualifications have a couple of shortcomings ... he didn't get to do that many covers. And his style is only semi-realistic. 

I think the only other contender to meet all those criteria is Jack Kirby, but I think Everett was a better artist of the two during the GA. I don't like Jack's GA art at all, it's too crude. Of course, he surpassed Bill and everybody else during the Silver Age. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Sarg
typo

[bronze johnny]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:05 PM, Sarg said:

Of course, Bill's qualifications have a couple of shortcomings ... he didn't get to do that many covers. And his style is only semi-realistic. 

I think the only other contender to meet all those criteria is Jack Kirby, but I think Everett was a better artist of the two during the GA. I don't like Jack's GA art at all, it's too crude. Of course, he surpassed Bill and everybody else during the Silver Age. 

Jack holds a greater place in comic book history:

“Greatest Comic Book Artist of the 20th Century”

Jack Is just too big for one age because his achievements transcend the Ages…

[RareHighGrade]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:40 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

While I don't agree with every brilliant philosophical utterance of the late great Stan Lee, he did make an astute observation (excelsior!) in suggesting that Alex Schomburg was the Norman Rockwell of comics.  

With all due respect to Stan, Creig Flessel was the Norman Rockwell of comics.  One need look no further than Flessel's covers for the early More Fun and New Adventure issues to see why.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:05 PM, Sarg said:

Of course, Bill's qualifications have a couple of shortcomings ... he didn't get to do that many covers. And his style is only semi-realistic. 

I think the only other contender to meet all those criteria is Jack Kirby, but I think Everett was a better artist of the two during the GA. I don't like Jack's GA art at all, it's too crude. Of course, he surpassed Bill and everybody else during the Silver Age. 

Woah there Nelly!  Unless you are cutting off the GA in the 1940s, which I would not do, then your opinion on Bill is way out of line.  The evidence:

 

I could go on.

 

[adamstrange]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:52 PM, sfcityduck said:

I could go on.

I'm not stopping you

[Cat-Man_America]

On 8/10/2023 at 5:41 PM, RareHighGrade said:

With all due respect to Stan, Creig Flessel was the Norman Rockwell of comics.  One need look no further than Flessel's covers for the early More Fun and New Adventure issues to see why.

  I'm probably whistling in the wind here, but I tend to think of Creig Flessel as being the James McNeill Whistler of comics. Given the variety of subjects he was tasked to do at DC and his chameleon-like ability to render in other styles his own involvement is sometimes difficult to pin down without a signature present. 

Conversely, Schomburg's work can usually be identified by style alone with no signature present visa-vie Norman Rockwell's commercial work requires no signature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_McNeill_Whistler

[LadyDeath]

Schomburg and Baker will always be my top picks.

Ogden Whitney is another personal favorite. His artwork had a clean and minimalist quality that I really enjoyed.

[Professor K]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:41 PM, RareHighGrade said:

With all due respect to Stan, Creig Flessel was the Norman Rockwell of comics.  One need look no further than Flessel's covers for the early More Fun and New Adventure issues to see why.

 

On 8/11/2023 at 2:59 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

  I'm probably whistling in the wind here, but I tend to think of Creig Flessel as being the James McNeill Whistler of comics. Given the variety of subjects he was tasked to do at DC and his chameleon-like ability to render in other styles his own involvement is sometimes difficult to pin down without a signature present. 

Conversely, Schomburg's work can usually be identified by style alone with no signature present visa-vie Norman Rockwell's commercial work requires no signature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_McNeill_Whistler

I have wondered why many comic artists who could create art on the level of the artists considered to be great artists (like Mr. Whistler) for example didn't do more one of a kind paintings over their lifetimes. Not talking about original art but like oil paintings such as Whistler's Mother. Maybe because the time it would take to create a painting wasn't worth the money they could sell it for at the time.