Heritage Auctions Preview 8/22-8/25 Chicago 2 2

[midwestfourcolors]

There will also be a bunch of comic art as well.

[Aahz]

Which auction is this going to? (ie When?)

[tth2]

I seem to recall someone showing pics of Miller Dark Knight OA from Heritage's booth at SDCC.  But I don't see them in the preview for the upcoming Signature Auction.  Are they not going to be in there?

[midwestfourcolors]

On 8/10/2023 at 12:07 PM, Aahz said:

Which auction is this going to? (ie When?)

Its a selection of items from auction 7341 which opens for bidding the week of the preview. The Auction itself is sep 14-17.

[TeddieMercede]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:15 AM, tth2 said:

I seem to recall someone showing pics of Miller Dark Knight OA from Heritage's booth at SDCC.  But I don't see them in the preview for the upcoming Signature Auction.  Are they not going to be in there?

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/frank-miller-and-klaus-janson-batman-the-dark-knight-3-story-page-48-49-iconic-joker-death-total-2-/p/7345-55005.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

International Auction 10/6 - 10/8.

Edited August 16, 2023 by TeddieMercede

[tth2]

On 8/16/2023 at 10:33 AM, TeddieMercede said:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/frank-miller-and-klaus-janson-batman-the-dark-knight-3-story-page-48-49-iconic-joker-death-total-2-/p/7345-55005.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

International Auction 10/6 - 10/8.

 

Thanks Eric. 

So in reading the description in the Heritage listing just now, am I understanding correctly that these pages being offered, which were the original Janson inks, are not the pages that were ultimately used in the published version, which were pages that Miller re-inked? 

[Nate Hartz]

On 8/16/2023 at 4:21 AM, tth2 said:

Thanks Eric. 

So in reading the description in the Heritage listing just now, am I understanding correctly that these pages being offered, which were the original Janson inks, are not the pages that were ultimately used in the published version, which were pages that Miller re-inked? 

Yes, I had read or heard somewhere that Miller re-inked panels that he was not happy with. You can see the inking in Batman legs vs the actual panel, etc.

Edited August 16, 2023 by Nate Hartz

[tth2]

On 8/16/2023 at 9:08 PM, Nate Hartz said:

Yes, Miller re-inked panels that he was not happy with. You can see the inking in Batman legs vs the actual panel, etc.

Thanks!

This will be an interesting auction, as it's perhaps the two most desirable pages from the series, but how does one price this?  On the one hand, it's Miller's pencils.  On the other hand, it's not the final published version, and I'm not sure what form the OA of the final published version is in--did Miller ink a copy of his pencils? 

Edited August 17, 2023 by tth2

[Dr. Balls]

On 8/16/2023 at 7:08 AM, Nate Hartz said:

Yes, Miller re-inked panels that he was not happy with. You can see the inking in Batman legs vs the actual panel, etc.

HA description states:

These two pages are the original Janson inks over Miller pencils, prior to Miller's newly inked versions ultimately being used as the published art.

You point out Bats legs (and some of his musculature in his bicep, more detail in the Joker's pants and the water darkened) being changed - but HA says Miller has newly inked versions. Do you think Miller re-did the whole page, or did he just white out (where he needed to) and re-draw/add details in panels? It seems that changes he made to the printed version were very minor, as opposed to complete redraws.

I mean, I have zero guesses to that - I was just wondering what someone more familiar with the work might think have happened here. It'll definitely be a cool auction to watch.

[Nate Hartz]

Storytime.....

Albert Moy interview with Felix.The Felix Comic Art Podcast: The Felix Comic Art Podcast (Episode 1): Albert Moy (libsyn.com)

After speaking to Klaus at a convention, he had Albert Moy head over to his apartment and gave him the complete art for books 2 and 3. When he got the artwork back from DC, Klaus was mad that Frank didn't like the inks and had placed redrawn stats all over the artwork. Klaus even took some stats off of the pages. (like the pages above). The rumor was that after Frank had seen the artwork, he thought the issues were coming out too fast and wanted to slow the release down. 

Albert had the pages for #2 for about a month and a half. He said that the panel pages sold for about $65-250 each and the splashes for $650-900.

Issue # 3 Albert purchased outright and sold all but 2 pages. Those # 3 pages sold as a quick flip.

 

 

 

[buttock]

On 8/16/2023 at 8:03 AM, tth2 said:

Thanks!

This will be an interesting, as it's perhaps the two most desirable pages from the series, but how does one price this?  On the one hand, it's Miller's pencils.  On the other hand, it's not the final published version, and I'm not sure what form the OA of the final published version is in--did Miller ink a copy of his pencils? 

@artdealer do you have any insight into this? 

[stinkininkin]

I was actually offered these pages that Heritage is offering maybe 6 years ago. I was tempted, since it was such a key scene from the books, but the fact that it wasn't the published version ended up tipping the scale for me to pass. Still cool and historic pages. I actually like the published all Miller re-drawn, re-inked pages better, and would have been extremely motivated to add those into my collection.

[Nate Hartz]

On 8/16/2023 at 2:52 PM, stinkininkin said:

I was actually offered these pages that Heritage is offering maybe 6 years ago. I was tempted, since it was such a key scene from the books, but the fact that it wasn't the published version ended up tipping the scale for me to pass. Still cool and historic pages. I actually like the published all Miller re-drawn, re-inked pages better, and would have been extremely motivated to add those into my collection.

I think it's been said before that Frank received all the art for issues 1 and 4 while Klaus got 2-3. Frank would re-draw and ink pages that he disagreed with. I had also heard that Todd McFarlane even inked some Dark Knight Returns pages, but were these the Frank/Klaus pages or the Frank/Frank pages?

[artdealer]

On 8/16/2023 at 3:38 PM, buttock said:

@artdealer do you have any insight into this? 

Nope.

[tth2]

On 8/17/2023 at 12:09 AM, Dr. Balls said:

You point out Bats legs (and some of his musculature in his bicep, more detail in the Joker's pants and the water darkened) being changed - but HA says Miller has newly inked versions. Do you think Miller re-did the whole page, or did he just white out (where he needed to) and re-draw/add details in panels? It seems that changes he made to the printed version were very minor, as opposed to complete redraws.

Yes, it would obviously have a huge impact on the price of these pages if there are two completely redrawn and reinked pages by Miller out there, versus these being the only pages with Miller pencils and the published pages are just white out/ink over a reproduction of Janson's inked version or Miller's inks over a reproduction of his pencils. 

If I were the consignor (or Heritage), I'd want to find out the answer and, particularly if it's not the former, I'd want to highlight in the description that these are the only pages with Miller's pencils.     

[tth2]

On 8/17/2023 at 2:28 AM, Nate Hartz said:

After speaking to Klaus at a convention, he had Albert Moy head over to his apartment and gave him the complete art for books 2 and 3. When he got the artwork back from DC, Klaus was mad that Frank didn't like the inks and had placed redrawn stats all over the artwork. Klaus even took some stats off of the pages. (like the pages above).

This makes it sound like these are the only pages, and Miller made his revisions on stats pasted on top of the pages (which Janson then took off, so maybe Miller's original inks don't even exist anymore). 

If so, would it be correct to conclude that probably not that much actually got reworked, because it seems it'd be extremely painful to stick stats all over the place and reink on them.  If there were a lot of changes, it'd be easier to just use white out and reink, or just reink over a reproduction of the pencils-only version (if people made reproductions of the pencils-only version).    

Maybe @stinkininkin could comment on the technical aspects of what would be the likely process. 

 

[Xatari]

[Bronty]

On 8/17/2023 at 12:38 AM, tth2 said:

This makes it sound like these are the only pages, and Miller made his revisions on stats pasted on top of the pages (which Janson then took off, so maybe Miller's original inks don't even exist anymore). 

If so, would it be correct to conclude that probably not that much actually got reworked, because it seems it'd be extremely painful to stick stats all over the place and reink on them.  If there were a lot of changes, it'd be easier to just use white out and reink, or just reink over a reproduction of the pencils-only version (if people made reproductions of the pencils-only version).    

Maybe @stinkininkin could comment on the technical aspects of what would be the likely process. 

 

It would be nice if the HA description was more clear.    Given that they haven't come out and said these are the only pages that exist, I imagine at least some bidders will ask the question and assume there is another set if they don't get an answer.

I find it a bit contradictory that HA specifies the page numbers in the title as though they are the published pieces, but then in the description mentions the rework.

Are these the published pages or not?    With the current description I'd have to assume not.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Bronty

[tth2]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:17 PM, Bronty said:

It would be nice if the HA description was more clear.    Given that they haven't come out and said these are the only pages that exist, I imagine at least some bidders will ask the question and assume there is another set if they don't get an answer.

I find it a bit contradictory that HA specifies the page numbers in the title as though they are the published pieces, but then in the description mentions the rework.

Are these the published pages or not?    With the current description I'd have to assume not.

Hence my many questions! 

Whatever the answer is might be the difference between these pages setting a new record for interior page OA (excluding the Secret Wars 8 outlier) and just being very expensive.  

[stinkininkin]

I'm not a Heritage spokesman, but I think it's made pretty clear that these are the original but REJECTED Miller/Janson pages from the issue. That's it. That's what you are bidding on. I believe that the Miller inked version exists in some form, but my knowledge about its nature (cut up individual panels like so many of the all Miller edited panels from those issues or created complete on intact boards) is incomplete. Bottom line-if you are bidding and valuing these Heritage pages as if they are the actual published pages, you'd be making a mistake.

Edited August 17, 2023 by stinkininkin