Mark Millar: Marvel, DC, And Independent Comics Only Make Up 9% Of Comic Book Market In North America 3 3

[Bart Allen]

We need a Manga forum-section 

Even independent comics are selling better, from Eric July's Isom to Keanu Reeves and Matt Kindt's BRZRKR ~

Edited September 29, 2023 by Bart Allen

[The humble Watcher lurking]

My favorite comic book channel on YouTube chimes in on the subject of what is wrong with the modern big 2 Marvel and DC. 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by The humble Watcher lurking

[StingerMcK]

The comic market is dying!  Again!

Meanwhile, this week:

Quote

It's Wednesday, so.... New Comic Book Day!

 

A big week again, with 581 new comic books released today. That is 581 releases, including variants.

 

If we don't count variants, there are 255 actual new issues!

 

[F For Fake]

On 9/28/2023 at 6:06 PM, Dr. Balls said:

... I’m not sure what the draw is to Manga and not regular comics (stories? Art? World building? I don’t have any idea).

Culture is definitely a part of it, as Japanese influence on American pop-culture continues to grow.

However, I'd suspect a big part of the equation is value. You can buy a standard manga book/trade, clocking in about 200-250 pages, for $8-$10.

What do mainstream American comics cost these days? $5? For 22 pages you can read in 5 minutes? The value just isn't there.

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/29/2023 at 8:07 AM, F For Fake said:

However, I'd suspect a big part of the equation is value. You can buy a standard manga book/trade, clocking in about 200-250 pages, for $8-$10.

What do mainstream American comics cost these days? $5? For 22 pages you can read in 5 minutes? The value just isn't there.

I have two people here at work who read Manga and that is exactly what they said. Almost word-for-word. $5 for a story that is done in a matter of minutes? Not satisfying to wallet or your brain. And for Marvel and DC, you can't unring the bell. Their entire infrastructure is built on selling $5 comic books, not $2.50 comic books - there is no possible way for corporate mentality to adjust backwards. They'll float away on their Golden Parachute while the company crashes to the ground.

[MatterEaterLad]

This is my local Barnes & Noble. That's all manga. The flip-side of those shelves are also stocked with manga. No comics in the store anywhere. 

[Juno Beach]

Every Halloween I get about 300 kids at my door. A very high percentage of them are wearing superhero costumes, Spidey being number one. Sad that they don't seem to want to read about them. I plan on handing out comics this year, hopefully it will stimulate interest.

[F For Fake]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:17 AM, Dr. Balls said:

. Their entire infrastructure is built on selling $5 comic books, not $2.50 comic books - there is no possible way for corporate mentality to adjust backwards.

Unfortunately, this is absolutely correct. The publishers have painted themselves into a corner with the number of titles they release at that price point. The comic shops, still the lifeblood of the comic industry, have such low profit margins, they HAVE to sell x-amount of books at that price week in and out to keep the lights on. At this point, if you drop the price, that only hurts the shops, because it's too late to bring those new readers in. Lowering prices may seem to make sense, but it won't increase readership. That ship has sailed. So, instead, they'd just be selling to the same comic junkies and making less money off of them. 

[Cat]

On 9/29/2023 at 8:06 AM, Dr. Balls said:

That’s not my genre, but it’s a helluva good idea.

I guess rebooting characters every 12 months wasn’t the way to go - but perhaps it was the only option left to stimulate activity at Marvel and DC. Either way, the Manga bell has been ringing for years, and I’m not sure what the draw is to Manga and not regular comics (stories? Art? World building? I don’t have any idea).

This could be a comic dead zone for awhile until it’s reinvented again down the line.

I want to read X-Men. Where do I start? 

I want to read Goblin Slayer. Where do I start. Easy. Volume 1. Oh, and the story will end. It will have a proper ending. It's going somewhere. Not going to be the same characters doing the same things when I die. That's a nice plus, wouldn't you say? 

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:07 AM, Cat said:

I want to read X-Men. Where do I start? 

I want to read Goblin Slayer. Where do I start. Easy. Volume 1. Oh, and the story will end. It will have a proper ending. It's going somewhere. Not going to be the same characters doing the same things when I die. That's a nice plus, wouldn't you say? 

I loved Captain Marvel. She had a great run across a couple volumes in the 2000s, then (I believe) they did the Marvel Now! renumbering, and she was inexplicably in space, and thanks to a new writer, retained none of the characteristics from the previous volumes. Guardians of the Galaxy suffered the same problem during Marvel Now! - and they were coming off a series that was absolutely kickazz. Sure, that's just my opinion - but it's my impression this happened often - but I'm sure there were plenty of books that didn't suffer as badly (as I read All New X-Men from the same time period and liked it quite a bit).

My issue wasn't with starting the books over after a year of publishing with new numbering, it was rebooting the characters when they got new creative teams. I think that, more than anything, is what hurt Marvel by alienating long-term readers. I know people love to make fun of the old fuddy-duddies that don't want their characters to change, but if Marvel was successful at what they were doing - you wouldn't have readership floating around 9%.

Edit: In Marvel's defense, things are much different now with how we consume our content. Would I be reading new stuff if Marvel was doing something different? I don't know. If you sold me omnibusses printed on newsprint that collected a year's worth of issues in a (ever popular) monthly home subscription kit, I'd love it. Put a bunch of collected comics on my doorstep each month at the same price point as other subscription boxes? I'd pay $30 for that, and I'd probably buy stuff I wouldn't normally read.

That could cover us old folks, would it work with the newer generation? Well, if a common lament from younger people is that manga has more content for lesser cost - then the theory would be sound if you replicated that concept with superhero books. Would they read it, or be interested in it, or jump onto new titles paying a premium for new content? Who knows. It's not an easy answer - I don't slight Marvel for being in a pickle. What I do slight them for is not having the foresight to combat those market problems while handing out bonuses and backslapping each other for a job well done than isn't really well done at all.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Dr. Balls

[Cat]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:10 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I loved Captain Marvel. She had a great run across a couple volumes in the 2000s, then (I believe) they did the Marvel Now! renumbering, and she was inexplicably in space, and thanks to a new writer, retained none of the characteristics from the previous volumes. Guardians of the Galaxy suffered the same problem during Marvel Now! - and they were coming off a series that was absolutely kickazz. Sure, that's just my opinion - but it's my impression this happened often - but I'm sure there were plenty of books that didn't suffer as badly (as I read All New X-Men from the same time period and liked it quite a bit).

My issue wasn't with starting the books over after a year of publishing with new numbering, it was rebooting the characters when they got new creative teams. I think that, more than anything, is what hurt Marvel by alienating long-term readers. I know people love to make fun of the old fuddy-duddies that don't want their characters to change, but if Marvel was successful at what they were doing - you wouldn't have readership floating around 9%.

Edit: In Marvel's defense, things are much different now with how we consume our content. Would I be reading new stuff if Marvel was doing something different? I don't know. If you sold me omnibusses printed on newsprint that collected a year's worth of issues in a (ever popular) monthly home subscription kit, I'd love it. Put a bunch of collected comics on my doorstep each month at the same price point as other subscription boxes? I'd pay $30 for that, and I'd probably buy stuff I wouldn't normally read.

That could cover us old folks, would it work with the newer generation? Well, if a common lament from younger people is that manga has more content for lesser cost - then the theory would be sound if you replicated that concept with superhero books. Would they read it, or be interested in it, or jump onto new titles paying a premium for new content? Who knows. It's not an easy answer - I don't slight Marvel for being in a pickle. What I do slight them for is not having the foresight to combat those market problems while handing out bonuses and backslapping each other for a job well done than isn't really well done at all.

Yeah, but I meant that as a literal question. Pick your favourite long-running Marvel Super-hero/team. X-Men is a good one. Pretend I'm new. I want to read X-Men. Where do I start? 

Pick me any manga. It's easy. Volume 1. Done and dusted. No wonder it's their preferred reading material. 

[Kromak]

On 9/29/2023 at 2:01 PM, Juno Beach said:

Every Halloween I get about 300 kids at my door. A very high percentage of them are wearing superhero costumes, Spidey being number one. Sad that they don't seem to want to read about them. I plan on handing out comics this year, hopefully it will stimulate interest.

Interesting. I always wondered how old characters, such as Batman and SM would fare in a popularity contest against "new" ones as Harley Quinn and Deadpool. The editor of a middle to small size publisher here told her son that she would buy any super-hero comic that he might be interested in. He was only interested in Deadpool......

[Dr. Balls]

On 9/30/2023 at 11:55 AM, Cat said:

Yeah, but I meant that as a literal question. Pick your favourite long-running Marvel Super-hero/team. X-Men is a good one. Pretend I'm new. I want to read X-Men. Where do I start? 

Pick me any manga. It's easy. Volume 1. Done and dusted. No wonder it's their preferred reading material. 

I see what you’re saying: I remember having a hard time finding out where to “restart” my X-Men reading, and it required me to research and find out where when I picked up All New X-Men. It was a hassle.

[justadude]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:07 AM, Cat said:

I want to read X-Men. Where do I start? 

I want to read Goblin Slayer. Where do I start. Easy. Volume 1. Oh, and the story will end. It will have a proper ending. It's going somewhere. Not going to be the same characters doing the same things when I die. That's a nice plus, wouldn't you say? 

This is dead on and gets at the largest problem of DC and Marvel: continuity. The biggest gripe I hear from readers about a new series is "that's not how X's character is." It's this push from the older generation to write stories to fit their (impossible to recreate) nostalgia while coming up with new ideas and fresh takes on characters. Spider-Boy is then both derivative, and the only solution Marvel can offer because it's boxed in by continuity.

It's also important to point out that the vast majority of Superhero books are simply bad, as in soap opera bad. Lots of rosy colored glasses are worn in this forum but if you go and read Marvel or DC from any point in time, they're generally overwritten comics. Manga is generally faster, allows for more expressionistic art style, and sparser. Words don't repeat the same thing in the panel, which happens ALL THE TIME in bad comics.

An alternative model, which is probably their best option, is to move away from monthly publishing altogether, scale down in size, and only sell standalone graphic novels. I, for one, would welcome a world where there aren't boring tie-ins and unfinished plots just for the sake of continuity. It's inefficient and uninspired storytelling. People point to Claremont X-Men and Miller Daredevil, but has there really been a good run of superhero comics, ever? As in, the story and all of its characters arc properly, there's a thematic through line, and a satisfying resolution? I've only ever found those things in miniseries.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 10/1/2023 at 1:05 AM, justadude said:

An alternative model, which is probably their best option, is to move away from monthly publishing altogether, scale down in size, and only sell standalone graphic novels. I, for one, would welcome a world where there aren't boring tie-ins and unfinished plots just for the sake of continuity. It's inefficient and uninspired storytelling. 

I would love this.

[Nick Furious]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:07 AM, F For Fake said:

Culture is definitely a part of it, as Japanese influence on American pop-culture continues to grow.

However, I'd suspect a big part of the equation is value. You can buy a standard manga book/trade, clocking in about 200-250 pages, for $8-$10.

What do mainstream American comics cost these days? $5? For 22 pages you can read in 5 minutes? The value just isn't there.

 

On 9/29/2023 at 10:17 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I have two people here at work who read Manga and that is exactly what they said. Almost word-for-word. $5 for a story that is done in a matter of minutes? Not satisfying to wallet or your brain. And for Marvel and DC, you can't unring the bell. Their entire infrastructure is built on selling $5 comic books, not $2.50 comic books - there is no possible way for corporate mentality to adjust backwards. They'll float away on their Golden Parachute while the company crashes to the ground.

I think this is absolutely correct, the value just isn't there to justify the price.  But lowering price is not the only solution.  They could also add substance to make it a longer read.  Some comic books used to be more like a variety show where the cover story is only part of it.  They also had text stories, backup stories, letters to the editor, and even advertisements that you could spend some time reading through and contemplating. 

[Cat]

On 10/2/2023 at 3:04 AM, Nick Furious said:

 

I think this is absolutely correct, the value just isn't there to justify the price.  But lowering price is not the only solution.  They could also add substance to make it a longer read.  Some comic books used to be more like a variety show where the cover story is only part of it.  They also had text stories, backup stories, letters to the editor, and even advertisements that you could spend some time reading through and contemplating. 

I still love reading Letters pages, whether old or new. It's great getting a feel on what people are thinking. I also often wonder what kind of people are writing in in the first place. Are they the same people shouting on Reddit, or are they people with no social media presence, keeping their opinions to themselves otherwise, giving us their fresh view? 

I just finished reading Transformers Classics Marvel UK and it reprints sample letters pages quite small, just to show you what they looked like, design-wise. I got out a magnifier just so I could read the columns. It gave me great enjoyment, to see what people were thinking of now legendary stories as they were happening. 

I'm glad the new Transformers comics has a letters page with Void Rivals, and I hope the main title follows suit. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Cat

[Lazyboy]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:05 AM, justadude said:

the only solution Marvel can offer because it's boxed in by continuity.

Marvel isn't boxed in by continuity. Marvel wiped their with any semblance of real continuity decades ago. Nothing they do matters because nothing they do matters. That is their problem (related to continuity)

[F For Fake]

On 10/1/2023 at 1:04 PM, Nick Furious said:

 

I think this is absolutely correct, the value just isn't there to justify the price.  But lowering price is not the only solution.  They could also add substance to make it a longer read.  Some comic books used to be more like a variety show where the cover story is only part of it.  They also had text stories, backup stories, letters to the editor, and even advertisements that you could spend some time reading through and contemplating. 

There's clearly a market and appetite for comic book characters and stories. We have movies, video games, action figures, etc So people do want these things, they have just chosen other venues to access those characters. I've always said that I'd love to buy a monthly manga-sized  book called "Batman", which collected all of the various monthly stories into one compact, economical format. Same for Spider-Man. Seems like you could sell those in book stores and magazine stands. I guess there have been some experiments in this direction, like the comic magazines DC was selling at Walmart (are those still going on?) 

I'm confident the answer is there, there's a way to get comic book content at a reasonable price into the hands of these folks who love the characters. I'm just not sure how to get there. I'll leave it to smarter folks.

[Beastfeast]

I walked by a large newsstand last night (Larchmont in LA) and was just amazed at the amount of hyper specific mags that are still being published and that they sell enough to justify not only printing, but the newsstand itself. 
 

it made me even more bummed for the loss of the comic newsstand market. From a new reader perspective, I got into comics because I’d be bored at the grocery store with my mom and look through comics while she shopped. Seems like it would even function as a decent loss leader to get new readers. Obviously they’ve crunched those numbers and it’s not possible but that loss of visibility isn’t helping the industry.