What are the top 5 Pedigree’s in your opinion? 7 7

[Superman2006]

On 10/19/2023 at 5:44 PM, sfcityduck said:

Back in the mid to late 70s, dealers weren't paying OPG.  They were paying no more than 50% and that was really rare. It was usually less. They had their overhead. They had to eat. And they had almost zero competition. So they paid what they could afford. Even Bangzoom, for that incredible WTG (likely Gilchrist) collection he bought in the mid-70s that was pulled from a garbage can but received shock and awe here when revealed, paid on average only a few dollars an issue. And my guess is that BZ was on the very very very generous side of the dealer math. I've heard stories about dealers paying strong prices for collections in the 60s and early 70s, but that was only when they were competing with other dealers, which Chuck wasn't.

So its hard for me to view Chuck as ripping off anyone given the full facts and what I think is the proper perspective on the times. In 1977, interest rates were marching up, almost 9%, and soon would hit as high as 18%. Unemployment was 6% to 7%, and the minimum wage was only $2 an hour.

As for Chuck, he was only 22 years old. He had a store, he had overhead, he no sure income, and he didn't have the purchase price the buyer wanted. He recalled: "At the time this call came in, I had been selling comics for 8 years. Starting with ads in the old Rocket's Blast Comic-Collector in 1969, and moving up to a stand at a monthly antiques show in 1970, I gradually had accumulated a large inventory of old comics. By 1972, I had over 8,000 back issues in my inventory, and rented a booth at my first national comics convention (Multi-con '72 in Oklahoma City). I grossed $1,800 during that convention, which was a huge sum in those days! I was only 17 years old at the time, but I knew from that moment onward that I wanted to be a comics dealer for the rest of my life." 

That's not a portrait of someone with no worries. That's a portrait of a hardworking dreamer. I have seen lots of comic stores go out of business. The guys I know who rode the comic store dream all the way from opening shop by 1970 into the 2020s amounts to just one guy reaching retirement and selling the business. Maybe you know more.  

And remember, Chuck bought that collection before Chuck blew up comic book prices with the concept of multiples (remember that the SF books were sold at slightly more than guide, and Chuck was selling at 3x multiples). The notion that comics would always move up wasn't established, these were still the days of laughter that they had any value at all. So, yeah, there was a lot of risk for 22 year old Chuck when he made his offer. Chuck did two very smart things when he made his offer. The first is that he didn't provide any representation as to what the comics were worth. Instead, he told OOs his purchase price was based on what he could afford to pay and made an offer based on volume.  Even so, the dream could fall apart. But, he probably felt a lot better about the deal when, after the deal was done, the OOs showed him the "closet" with the best comics.

The second smart thing he did was he had the genius idea of getting one of the top collectors in the country, Burl Rowe, to fund the purchase price by  a "loan"  (albeit at the potentially big disadvantage of giving Rowe first choice of comics up to $10K in value - which meant that Chuck was paying off the $2K loan immediately by the first $2K in comics Rowe chose). But, even so, a few years later, Chuck was nearly out of business. Small business is full of risks. What saved him was not the Mile High collection, but the MH2 books.  

Just to be clear:

I agree with your view that Chuck didn't rip off the family, at least based on the accounts of the transaction that I've read.

I agree that from the accounts I've read, Chuck definitely does not present as someone with no worries back around that time.

However, IMO there was no need for one to be certain that comics would always move up for a knowledgeable comics dealer at the time that had viewed the collection in person (like Chuck did) to have ascertained that there would be very little risk in purchasing the entire collection at 10 cents a piece. I don't know exactly how it went down, but I would say there would be virtually no risk if (a) the family wanted $2K for the collection and (b) Chuck could have told them "I don't have that much in liquid funds, but assuming I can pull together the funds, which I expect to be able to do, then you have a deal. I'll give you call ASAP when I have pulled together the funds", (c) at that point, Chuck could have reach out to other(s) (like he apparently did with Burrell Rowe), given up a "mere" $10K in overstreet value in exchange for $2K up front, and then (d) essentially retained the balance of the collection that were worth many multiples of the purchase price (even back then) for "free".  Other knowledgeable dealers that were around at or around that time can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 10/19/2023 at 11:21 PM, action1kid said:

On 10/13/2023 at 4:33 PM, buttock said:

I think it (the Church) initially graded as 8.0 and was bumped to 8.5.  In these days of "improvement" DA could be kicking himself as the Church could now technically be nicer.  

 

On 10/14/2023 at 8:48 PM, Paul (GG) © ® ™⚽️💙 said:

I didn't want to be the one to say it.... 

 

On 10/17/2023 at 6:01 AM, lou_fine said:

If that was indeed the case, then wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a thread on "What Are The BOTTOM 5 Pedigree's In YOur Opinion"?  

2 Million bought a hell of a lot more in the 70’s than it does today.

What are you doing?

Just randomly picking bits and pieces of conversation out of context and lumping them together to fit your agenda???  

Just to be clear in case any one is confused my comment was in response to someone else talking about something completely different, namely the OP moaning that there were too many pedigrees but ironically starting as many threads about pedigrees as he could before his keyboard went up in smoke.

The comment you've used of mine (don't know about the other guys) is from an entirely different thread!!

I say again.....

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Paul (GG) © ® ™⚽️💙

[lou_fine]

On 10/18/2023 at 5:54 PM, sfcityduck said:

So I'm good with using "Mile High" as the moniker (and Cosmic Aeroplane, etc.) despite we know the OO's name, just like I am with using Promise, Chinatown, etc.

I believe if you really wanted to, you could probably be able to determine the actual name of the OO for all of these pedigree collections.  

Especially since I am sure the founders or dealers who brought them or will bring them to market knows the actual names of the OO of these pedigree collections.  It's just that they prefer to keep their name "secret" for various reasons which could range from something as covoluted as the possibility that the OO or their family might possibly had disposed of the collection years or even decades before they actually came to market.  Or it could be something as silly as the founder/dealer thinking the actual name of the OO did not have the right sound to it and hence might devalue the collection going forward.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 10/19/2023 at 2:44 PM, sfcityduck said:

Chuck did two very smart things when he made his offer. The first is that he didn't provide any representation as to what the comics were worth. Instead, he told OOs his purchase price was based on what he could afford to pay and made an offer based on volume. 

Understandably, the recounting of history can indeed get very fuzzy at times.  I was always under the impression that it was the family that made the offer to Chuck based upon the belief that there was about 20,000 books there and at 10 cents a pop, that would work out to $2,000.  Chuck merely agreed to accept the family's offer and was not asked and did not expressed any opinion as to the value of the collection.  Nothing more than a straight forward offer (by the fammily) and acceptance (by Chuck) deal and hence a binding legal contractual agreement.  

Some here have speculated that the family might have taken Chuck to the courts after they found out the true value of the collection, but believe there was nothing found on any court records and hence probably just nothing more than another conspriacy theory with no evidence of any actual proof to support it. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by lou_fine

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2023 at 3:10 PM, adamstrange said:

Chuck said he made $2 Million off the Church collection, the value of which he did not fully optimze.  Given the value of money back then, that was awful lot  and should have set him up for life.  That it didn't, was almost certainly due to Chuck's actions.

MH2 maybe.  But the original MH collection?  I doubt it. He sold the early Actions for what?  $20K. That's a long way from a million. And those were sold later in the process several years after he got the collection.  I'd like to see the quote. It sounds like puffery or confusion with the MH2 collection which is what saved his store.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/19/2023 at 10:33 PM, lou_fine said:

I believe if you really wanted to, you could probably be able to determine the actual name of the OO for all of these pedigree collections.  

Especially since I am sure the founders or dealers who brought them or will bring them to market knows the actual names of the OO of these pedigree collections.  It's just that they prefer to keep their name "secret" for various reasons which could range from something as covoluted as the possibility that the OO or their family might possibly had disposed of the collection years or even decades before they actually came to market.  Or it could be something as silly as the founder/dealer thinking the actual name of the OO did not have the right sound to it and hence might devalue the collection going forward.  

I know the OO for Cosmic Aeroplane and Promise, and the Chinatown OO is known to the owner at least. 

Allentown? No idea. SF? Never verified. Okajima? There's a debate as to which family member(s). 

I agree with you on the "why" we don't know all the OOs. Probably because of puffery/marketing stories not being rock solid, or hopes for future comics from the OO, or confidentiality concerns, or to bury something, etc.

[Cat-Man_America]

This thread feels like deja vu all over again. 

Since this is basically a popularity contest featuring fave pedigrees, here's my honest opinion (the top three usually sell for multiples of Guide, so they're shoe-ins):

1) Church

2) San Francisco (Reilly)

3) Gaines File

4) Larson

5) Fill in the blank _________ (Could be Chinatown, Chicago, Okajima, Allentown, Denver, Billy Wright, Rockford, Promise Collection or other pedigree depending on the book & perceived grade)

[zzutak]

This thread needs more pics! 

Probably the best $$$ spent during my entire life: $84 for 30 pre-code Atlas from the as-yet-unnamed Edgar Church collection.  Saturday, Feb 25, 1978, at a very small, sparsely-attended comic show in Sacramento (I don't think a single person visited Chuck's booth the entire time I was there).  At that point in my life, $100 was essentially every penny I had (otherwise, I would have spent more), and I valued quantity over quality (hence, my preference for the less expensive, mid-grade specimens).  I ended up selling the crime issues to a fellow collector and having most of the horror issues certified.

[adamstrange]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:25 AM, sfcityduck said:

MH2 maybe.  But the original MH collection?  I doubt it. He sold the early Actions for what?  $20K. That's a long way from a million. And those were sold later in the process several years after he got the collection.  I'd like to see the quote. It sounds like puffery or confusion with the MH2 collection which is what saved his store.

The $2M figure was from Chuck in one of his articles/interviews on the MH collection.  He made a LOT more on MH2.

[action1kid]

20k in 1977 probably bought more than a million today. Of course I’m exaggerating, but by how much?

[EastEnd1]

On 10/19/2023 at 7:52 AM, whomerjay said:

I never understood why so many say the find is such a great story

It's interesting how the Mile High legend/perspective grows the further we get from it's discovery.  In actuality, the collection was "discovered" only 25-40 years after publication... so kind of like finding a collection today from the 1980/90s.  Now of course, comic book collecting was still basically an "immature" hobby in the mid-seventies and certainly a much rarer endeavor in the decades prior, but is it really that shocking to have found such a large pristine collection that close to publication date?  To me the most interesting part of the Mile High story is that Chuck got to it before the family threw it out, as so many other likely amazing collections had been.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by EastEnd1

[grendelbo]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:17 AM, zzutak said:

$84 for 30 pre-code Atlas from the as-yet-unnamed Edgar Church collection.

 

On 10/20/2023 at 4:17 AM, zzutak said:

and having most of the horror issues certified.

Question - how'd these books keep their provenance between 78 and the early 2000s?

[zzutak]

On 10/20/2023 at 6:50 AM, EastEnd1 said:

In actuality, the collection was "discovered" only about 25-35 years after publication.

The collection includes books from 1959-1960 (and possibly even later), so it's probably more accurate to say it was discovered only about 17 years after Church made his final comic purchases.  As you correctly note, from a length of time hidden perspective, Chuck's find was not exactly comparable to Howard Carter unearthing King Tut's tomb. 

[EastEnd1]

On 10/16/2023 at 1:38 AM, Dr. Love said:

Here's a question for someone who ponders these things - why do you think Gaines wouldn't include even one copy of even one romance issue? EVERYTHING else was there, in all their multiple glory.

From what I've seen, the Gaines collection only included the New Trend and New Direction books.  Though the collection did include some of the early "Picture History..." books, the Pre-Trend comics, of which there were many (including Modern Love), were not saved.  Interestingly though, Gaines did save Crime Patrol #15/16 (1st Cryptkeeper) and War Against Crime #10/11 (1st Vaultkeeper), the very earliest New Trend stories before any New Trend comics were published.  I haven't seen any other files copies from these titles. It was as if he knew his new horror stories were going to blast off!

[zzutak]

On 10/20/2023 at 7:11 AM, grendelbo said:

Question - how'd these books keep their provenance between 78 and the early 2000s?

The entire group was certified at one time (in Feb 2013).  The chain of ownership was short (from the Church heirs, to Chuck, to me), the books all look like Church books from this period (1951-52), and their individual condition grades correlate well with those in Chuck's original listing (accounting, naturally, for the fact that Chuck only used a handful of grades at that time).  Plus I'm as honest a person as you'll find (although I don't think that influenced Borock et al's decision). 

[tth2]

On 10/20/2023 at 9:50 PM, EastEnd1 said:

but is it really that shocking to have found such a large pristine collection that close to publication date?

Can you name another GA collection as big as the Church collection, contains as many of the keys as the Church collection, and is as generally high grade as the Church collection?

I can't even think of a SA collection that meets all 3 of these criteria as well as the Church collection does.  The Pacific Coast probably comes the closest, but it falls short on the keys and the keys tend not to be that high grade.

[Funnybooks]

On 10/20/2023 at 9:44 AM, action1kid said:

20k in 1977 probably bought more than a million today. Of course I’m exaggerating, but by how much?

$101,580.53 inflation adjusted

Edited October 20, 2023 by Funnybooks

[action1kid]

Thanks

[Funnybooks]

On 10/20/2023 at 11:49 AM, action1kid said:

Thanks

enough for about 3 modern variants these days

[Kevin.J]

On 10/20/2023 at 11:17 AM, zzutak said:

This thread needs more pics! 

Probably the best $$$ spent during my entire life: $84 for 30 pre-code Atlas from the as-yet-unnamed Edgar Church collection.  Saturday, Feb 25, 1978, at a very small, sparsely-attended comic show in Sacramento (I don't think a single person visited Chuck's booth the entire time I was there).  At that point in my life, $100 was essentially every penny I had (otherwise, I would have spent more), and I valued quantity over quality (hence, my preference for the less expensive, mid-grade specimens).  I ended up selling the crime issues to a fellow collector and having most of the horror issues certified.

Whoa