ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:55 PM, skybolt said:

Unfortunately, half the grader notes I get from CGC make no sense (albeit for much cheaper books). I would agree that 9.6/9.8 candidates are the best for these shenanigans since they have no grader notes to compare to.

I was thinking more along the lines of the 3.0 to 4.0 difference in grades, which would show up on the records. Sending it in makes it all look 100% legit. 

[skybolt]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:55 PM, drotto said:

Personally, I suspect their process does cause some damage to the slab, but it does not look like tampering. We all know slabs with damage do not sell as well. So the individual needs the resubmission. Second, now that CGC is posting scans of graded books, if they can get the now re-slabbed book scanned and listed in the registry with the new image, it gives them more backing that this is the original and valid book. It also looks like CGC is backing their copy.

I didn't think of the 2nd point. That makes a lot of sense if someone checks CGC verification for grader notes and notices the books are different. This guy definitely did his homework.

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:46 PM, skybolt said:

They will never release that list, just like they didn't in the Jason Ewert situation many years ago. The floodgates would open if that ever happens. They'll take the approach that if there is no significant proof that 95% of the books this guy submitted were swapped, then these books in question are not tainted.

CGC may not be able to control this. Law enforcement will be interested in finding the victims, and that will mean getting those records.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:12 PM, skybolt said:

On 12/21/2023 at 2:02 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Conversely or by and by...

Look up the cert numbers corresponding to those individual cert numbers in the verification tool, from the base number of ########01 all the way to ########25...

And you can see all the books in each submission to question them. Alternatively to also looking up the pics to see inserted books, that given his most recent submission being ones with cgc scans on the verification tool then you also might see scans of those additional submissions in CGC scans from #01-25

I see what you're saying. Even if he submits the original books he swapped out for regrading, at least we'll know which books he was trying to swap and work back from there.

Amen. It would also show "the other books in those submissions" instead of just the "sold books with pics" to a give the volume of those submitted and the "submissions possibly have pics due to CGC scanning slabs now and depending on how recent." 

Whatever the youtubers were going to due with the "sold book pics", they can also do by looking at those pics and going from #01 to #25 as the end number to look up other books in that books submission  

Maybe those books in sold are from multiple submissions, so if you took each sold book cert and changed the last 2 numbers starting from 01, 02, 03, and so on up to #25 you'd see all the books that slabs submission. Just start with the sold pics certs, since that is the one you have. 

You might also get an extent to the volume "the submitter" was doing too  

Edited December 21, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[MAR1979]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:50 PM, brute_nm said:

I know it's futile but I'll throw up another bat signal to @CGC Mike @mnelsonCGC. I would be fine with the ol' "we can't comment on an ongoing investigation" or "we're looking into it" canned response - at least some type of acknowledgment would be nice.

The absence of communication churns the rumor mill.

You would think a $500M company could afford the salary of a single PR person or a Crisis Management seminar 

Parent company is in the CGC pumpin' stage, if/when the Benjamin flow slows the dumpin' phase commences.

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:04 PM, Prince Namor said:

I know eBay was appealing the French ruling... trying to find how all of that played out... as far as in the U.S. (where this is taking place with CGC books), it looks like...

Judge Richard Sullivan, a U.S. District Judge in New York, said that Tiffany and other companies are responsible for policing their trademarks if and when they appear on eBay, and that eBay’s generalized knowledge that some of the goods for sale on its site might be fake is not sufficient to impose contributory liability.

https://softwarenegotiation.com/ebay-wins-trademark-tangle-with-tiffany-co/

Again, not saying eBay is liable. As soon as eBay has to issue a refund, they are a victim. At that point, their most natural form of redress is to go after CGC or the seller. CGC is in some ways probably the easier path. At that point, CGC is the victim (after paying eBay) and has only the seller to go after. That is how it should be btw.

[mephistopheles]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:00 PM, paqart said:

CGC may not be able to control this. Law enforcement will be interested in finding the victims, and that will mean getting those records.

You have too much faith in law enforcement. I doubt they will do anything.

[ADAMANTIUM]

For intsance.

Here is one of the suspected fraud books that sold. Look up that cert number in the verification tool on cgccomics.com.

Then change the last 2 digits of the cert starting with #01 and so on to #25, and use that new Cert # to look it up in the verification tool on cgccomics.com.

You'll see every book in that particular cert #'s submission, as the first 8 numbers in a submission always stay the same, only changing the last 2 numbers depending on quantity of the submission. CGC has a limit of 25 books per submission or they used too.

So each fraud book that sold, which was a long list, change the fraud book cert last two digits to 01 and you'll see the 1st book in that slabs submission. Change last two to 02 enter in certification tool and so on up to changing the last 2 digits to "25"

If they are recent submissions, CGC will have provided scans for those books, but we'll also have a list of the book names, certs, "variants" and so on....

Edited December 21, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:55 PM, skybolt said:

Unfortunately, half the grader notes I get from CGC make no sense (albeit for much cheaper books). I would agree that 9.6/9.8 candidates are the best for these shenanigans since they have no grader notes to compare to.

Which is why they are targeting higher graded copies with high value variants or know issues that would be completely hidden once encapsulated. The things that appear on high grade notes are often really general. Like, 1 small tick noted on spine, or slightly blunted corner. So not very informative. Thus, the description is often not enough to tell books apart without a photo, and they have figured out a way to substitute their photo. We are comparing photos where you can see the wrap, exactly where a spine tick is located, etc. Things the notes do not record, and so someone assessing a book for re-holder would easily miss a swap. 

 

I can see how this would be easily missed, without doing side by side photo comparisons. CGC is not comparing each resubmission with photos to see if it is the same book. It would be time consuming, and very costly. We are catching it because the insane people here are willing to take the time to compair, and are doing it on a handful of examples, not 1000's of books.

 

 

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:06 PM, mephistopheles said:

You have too much faith in law enforcement. I doubt they will do anything.

They will definitely do something if he used his real name, his own credit card, he turns himself in and both CGC and eBay provide all of the evidence in a box with a cute little bow on it. 

[comicwiz]

I think I found another IH 181 from green to blue... getting images and screenshots together

[GDN]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:10 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

For intsance.

Here is one of the suspected fraud books that sold. Look up that cert number in the verification tool on cgccomics.com.

Then change the last 2 digits of the cert starting with #01 and so on to #25, and use that new Cert # to look it up in the verification tool on cgccomics.com.

You'll see every book in that particular cert #'s submission, as the first 8 numbers in a submission always stay the same, only changing the last 2 numbers depending on quantity of the submission. CGC has a limit of 25 books per submission or they used too.

So each fraud book that sold, which was a long list, change the fraud book cert last two digits to 01 and you'll see the 1st book in that slabs submission. Change last two to 02 enter in certification tool and so on up to changing the last 2 digits to "25"

If they are recent submissions, CGC will have provided scans for those books, but we'll also have a list of the book names, certs, "variants" and so on....

But the cert numbers aren't changing.  They are referencing the original cert number which is a legit book and was submitted with other legit books by an honest collector.  There is no record of the re-holder other than the new photos.  The grading date doesn't change, the cert # doesn't change.  We don't even know the date of the re-holder.

Edited December 21, 2023 by GDN

[GDN]

What we do know is probably half of this guy's CGC submissions are legit submission because for every book he swaps he ends up with a RAW copy that he can send in to have graded fresh.  Hoping it comes back with the same grade as the case he took it out of.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by GDN

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:29 PM, comicwiz said:

I think I found another IH 181 from green to blue... getting images and screenshots together

[Gaard]

My understanding is that all reholders get a new inner sleeve.

[comicwiz]

I got these through WP, if anyone can get larger, clearer pics from GoCollect. I'll attached what I've mined. So this is the green...

[comicwiz]

These are the highest res I could get through WP - look at that back cover staple, particularly the distinct characteristic that looks like either staple wear or early rust migration

[comicwiz]

Edited December 21, 2023 by comicwiz

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:31 PM, GDN said:

The grading date doesn't change, the cert # doesn't change.  We don't even know the date of the re-holder.

CGC will have this info on their end. 

[GDN]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:43 PM, comicwiz said:

Here are the better quality photos from GoCollect for the green label one: