• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
50 50

Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,028 posts in this topic

Prince Namor

Prince Namor

Posted
Posted
On 12/22/2023 at 5:36 AM, paqart said:

I'm pretty sure CGC can be held liable for this because their service is to certify and guarantee that what is inside the slab conforms to the label they deposit inside the slab. That guarantee means they are liable. This is no different from the situation if an assayer stamps a gold brick 99.9% pure gold, but it's actually only half gold. If someone buys based on that representation, and who wouldn't, it's the assayer's fault for putting a false stamp on the bar, and the fault of the person presenting the bar for assay, if that person knew it wasn't 99.9% pure.

Not by eBay.

It's much more likely eBay would go after the SELLER as having scammed someone to get any money back they may have reimbursed someone for that the seller wasn't able to. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Timed

Timed

Posted
Posted
On 12/21/2023 at 4:37 PM, Mikey C said:

He removed the green label 8.5 completely, put it into a blue label 8.5's existing case and sent that in for a reholder. He's not replacing anything. That blue label 8.5 is now missing page 10. Then he still has the original, complete 8.5 raw to send in to get graded fresh.

You are right, I ended up confusing myself on this one. Oops.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
paqart

paqart

Posted
Posted
On 12/21/2023 at 5:39 PM, Prince Namor said:

Not by eBay.

It's much more likely eBay would go after the SELLER as having scammed someone to get any money back they may have reimbursed someone for that the seller wasn't able to. 

Okay, I'm out. I am unconvinced but don't feel like going into this further with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
THE_BEYONDER

THE_BEYONDER

Posted
Posted
On 12/21/2023 at 5:42 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I once submitted a purple book (color touch) for a signing and it came back blue.

I thought it was just a mistake, but maybe there's another loophole there too? 

(shrug)

If a book can go from green to blue, I don’t see why the same scam couldn’t be used to turn purple labels into blue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
drotto

drotto

Posted
Posted
On 12/21/2023 at 5:23 PM, apoptosis said:

I have been looking through this to make sure I don't have any of these books and noticed a few things I haven't seen mentioned (I haven't read every post, just a lot):

1) He has been double selling these on eBay, same cert# sold week apart.  Could be buyer didn't pay, or maybe he is shrill bidding...

 

2120143023 Sold 2023-11-21, 2023-12-05
4245731004 Sold 2023-10-19, 2023-10-31
4287881003 Sold 2023-10-17, 2023-11-14

 

2) Here are likely submissions made by seller.  If he just re-holdered a single book you can't tell but some of these he submitted for in a batch, I would also check any of these books if you have.

 

4286817001 through 4286817004
4310701001 through 4310701008
4324007001 through 4324007007
4329914001 through 4329914006
4341610001 through 4341610002
4343218001 through 4343218005

 

These certificate numbers would more likely be the legitimate resubmitted books. The swapped books retain the original certificate number, so there would be no spific order to the certificates. Remember, he is buying real blue labels, swapping in a lessor book, then getting those better books re-graded. 

 

The swapped books will be harder to track, but CGC should have a list of all books submitted for re-holder.  The buyers, have no access to this information. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Popular Post
jsilverjanet

jsilverjanet

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted

:news: just hung up with CGC, and they said they are going to honor the time board tradition of waiting till Friday for a response so this thread can really kick off

giphy.gif

:jokealert:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
drotto

drotto

Posted
Posted
On 12/21/2023 at 5:49 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

If a book can go from green to blue, I don’t see why the same scam couldn’t be used to turn purple labels into blue.

It can, that has been discussed, and is a big problem.  The thing is restoration to a trained eye, may be easier to spot even in the case, then what people have found so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
jsilverjanet

jsilverjanet

Posted
Posted
On 12/21/2023 at 4:49 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

If a book can go from green to blue, I don’t see why the same scam couldn’t be used to turn purple labels into blue.

they probably ran out of purple ones and used blue ones

didn't they once run out of regular slabs and used magazine

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Christophe9999

Christophe9999

Posted
Posted
On 12/21/2023 at 2:39 PM, Prince Namor said:

Not by eBay.

It's much more likely eBay would go after the SELLER as having scammed someone to get any money back they may have reimbursed someone for that the seller wasn't able to. 

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out but eBay is not incentivized to do anything. Let's not forget they collected thousands in fees from these sales. Not sure what eBay would do for a buyer that purchased something months ago that was fraudulent. They might not even care. I've heard some horror stories from people dealing with their support. I will say that I work for a law enforcement agency and we have investigators that have worked with eBay for gathering evidence. eBay will provide that but of course this is because a law enforcement agency has brought up a case and is requesting the data. I don't see eBay cooperating if it's just a customer trying to resolve these fraudulent sales.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
sledgehammer

sledgehammer

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 12/21/2023 at 1:23 PM, VintageComics said:
On 12/21/2023 at 12:53 PM, skybolt said:

For example, I remember a Youtuber previously asking CGC if he could re-holder a previously graded newsstand edition and get the newsstand designation, and was told that they can't do that without regrading the book. In this scenario the newsstand designation was actually in plain site vs. in the middle of the book like the Mark Jeweler insert.

Can someone verify if what I said above is true?

This is how I understood it as well, and argued as such for the first 20 pages (that the book would need to be inspected to verify the MJ insert before adding the designation on the label).

That may have changed with cost cutting or reducing turnaround times, but I was under the same impression as you on this. 

 

Roy, what you said repeatedly, was that they would check for the insert if the submitter wanted  reholdering..

I'm the one that said he would have had to submit it for grading, which would have made it more likely that CGC would have discovered that it was now a lower grade copy in his submitted slabs.

 

On 12/21/2023 at 10:31 AM, skybolt said:

I can totally see this ASM #252 guy calling CGC and complaining about missing designations and CGC automatically remedying the issue (without performing an investigation) because he's a high valued customer. He probably called and said "what the heck is going on here, I'm spending tens of thousands of dollars grading books and you guys can't get the Mark Jeweler designation correct on my books"? CGC customer service likely pushed this complaint quickly through the door to appease this customer.

Yep, me too.

(thumbsu

Edited by sledgehammer
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Lightning55

Lightning55

Posted
Posted
On 12/21/2023 at 5:20 PM, milk_man said:

All these Hulk 181s with different cert numbers means it's not an abuse of the reholdering process, it's someone cracking green labels, marrying the MVS wrap and resubmitting for a new blue label.

This is only half true. 

It could be from marrying, one possibility. It could also be exactly like the 252 and 181 in question.

Scammer buys a legit 181, removes it, puts in the MVS-less copy. Seals it to a good enough level to fool CGC, maybe even has some minor frame damage that would not look suspicious to be asking for a reholder. Sends it in, gets reholder,  retains same cert#.

Resubmits original 181 for grading to get a new blue cert#, repeats the process.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
50 50
Go to topic listing