ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:25 PM, Mr. Spider-Woman said:

What's the crime committed here the part of the seller? Some kind of fraud, probably? It's clear something shady is going on but I'm curious what laws the seller has broken.

I think pages like 10-30 have a drawn out discussion about that including some boardies who are lawyers giving their thoughts

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:25 PM, Mr. Spider-Woman said:

What's the crime committed here the part of the seller? Some kind of fraud, probably? It's clear something shady is going on but I'm curious what laws the seller has broken.

That was talked about on all 50 pages from this morning.

[JC25427N]

It would help if half of every page wasn't diluted with "If I were CGC I would...." posts. Does anyone really care what another boardie would do, I just care what CGC will actually do 

[drotto]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:36 PM, RonS2112 said:

Seriously though, why?  There are those of us here with a minimal number of slabs for precisely this reason.  If you: a) are able to competently grade a book, and b) have a network of sellers you work with who can also competently grade and offer fair deals and c) you are able to work with these people to reach mutually agreeable deals on books, then there's no need for CGC or slabbed books.  So for those of us to whom this applies, this is all theater and will result in a great buying opportunity for a lot of the books in question.

1. It was clearly a joke and many people took it that way.

2. I have been buying, trading, and selling comics for 30 years, both raw and slabbed.  I am also a reasonably good grader. This is not experience or skills a new collector has.

3. Not all people have access to a network of dealers or friends that are honest and willing to work with them.  You are very lucky to have that. While obviously a flawed system, in theory third party graders should give buyers a degree of confidence buying from strangers online, where you can not truly handle and evaluate a book as easily. You can not ignor the trend of more commerce happening online. The places you can buy old comics in person is shrinking, and getting to shows is not always possible. 

4. Yes, slabs may invite certain investors and speculators into our space, that we do not want around.  But also gives the new, inexperienced collector that wants to enter our hobby an avenue to buy with increased confidence, and seeing graded books, learn what constitutes certain grades. Classic double edge sword. 

 

Worts and all third party grading has helped to expand and grow comic collecting in both number of people doing it, as well as the value of many people's collections.   Along with the growth of the internet, it has allowed me to see and acquire books I was never able to find locally, or at smaller shows.  While I love the personal hands on aspects of collecting, if third party grading did not exist, this already small hobby would shrink to almost nothing, and new blood would be almost non existent in the modern collecting world. Unfortunately, I think comic  collecting would die without it. Like it or not it has expanded to basically every type of collecting, and it is not going away.  We have to accept that, but also make sure that it does what it advertises it does. The existence of grading also does not stop anyone from just buying books. I view it as a necessary evil.  

Edited December 22, 2023 by drotto

[comicwiz]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:04 PM, agamoto said:

Hoo boy…

so I use WorthPoint, which allows searching through historical records of eBay sales going back to the beginning.

i searched for a phrase briva3 uses in all their descriptions… "the $$$ and hard work has already been done for you”

the result? Over 1200 listings…. Hundreds upon hundreds of high grade books too. So many friggin spider-man 300’s.

This is devastating.

listings go back to 2015

 

This is a timely post.

I've never tried using a keyword of the seller on worthpoint, but that would mean he would have had to put his seller name in the description. But searching on a slogan is definitely something I hadn't thought possible.

I'm going to jump on and see what I can find.

UPDATE: Weird, I'm not getting any results

Edited January 5 by comicwiz

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:22 PM, Buzzetta said:

Or the old Lakeside Tattooz FF 252 transfer to an ASM 238 switcheroo. 

Every time I see an FF 252 evil thoughts rise up. 

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:21 PM, VintageComics said:

On 12/21/2023 at 4:55 PM, sledgehammer said:

 

Roy, what you said repeatedly, was that they would check for the insert if the submitter wanted  reholdering..

I'm the one that said he would have had to submit it for grading, which would have made it more likely that CGC would have discovered that it was now a lower grade copy in his submitted slabs.

 

Yep, me too.

I know what I said, and others believe the same thing that I do.

Can you edit this and remove the "Yep, me too. "

It was directed at a different comment in my post, completely unrelated to what you quoted, and seems to be trying to make me look scatterbrained.

I like to do that all by myself.

K? Thanx.

 

[agamoto]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:16 PM, mephistopheles said:

I suggest you grab screenshots if possible.

Just a sampling of some of the earliest posts.

 

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:39 PM, agamoto said:

Just a sampling of some of the earliest posts.

 

Does worthpoint give you the seller's ebay name too? I feel like some variation of "The money and hard work has already been done for you" isn't an uncommon phrase for people selling graded books (Although the exact use of $$$ may be more discriminating) 

[agamoto]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:32 PM, comicwiz said:

This is a timely post. I was just wondering if George over at @gpanalysis was able to run some special filters on the database against sellers names. That would be something very useful when we see a pattern of dubious activity, especially on a platform where we can do lookup on s/n's and such.

I've never tried using a keyword of the seller on worthpoint, but that would mean he would have had to put his seller name in the description.

I'm going to jump on and see what I can find.

UPDATE: Weird, I'm not getting any results

You can't search by seller on worthpoint, you can only search for text strings within the ads themselves... Is it possible these ads (and I've since found some back to 2006) are from a different seller and he copied the description? Possible, but the style of writing in the ad and a lot of the other phrases used line up. There are a large number of graded coin sales too that contain similar phrases. Someone selling coins from the "Enfield collection" whatever that is. 

[agamoto]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:42 PM, JC25427N said:

Does worthpoint give you the seller's ebay name too? I feel like some variation of "The money and hard work has already been done for you" isn't an uncommon phrase for people selling graded books (Although the exact use of $$$ may be more discriminating) 

Unfortunately no, they don't record the seller name, at least not publicly. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:53 PM, skybolt said:

The one thing I'm trying to get my head around is how this guy was bold enough to submit some of these books for re-holdering and not worry about CGC potentially asking to regrade them to ensure that the Mark Jeweler insert is all there and/or not detached.

The seller stated in a DM to 9.9newstand that he has a connection at CGC, who does him favors.

Not saying anything the guy says is true...but if it is, it explains why there was never any questioning.

This is a whole lot of books we're seeing.  Expensive books.  An inside man would make total sense based on how many, and how long he's been doing this.

Not fanning flames of speculation, but..maybe he is honest about some things.

 

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:04 PM, agamoto said:

Hoo boy…

so I use WorthPoint, which allows searching through historical records of eBay sales going back to the beginning.

i searched for a phrase briva3 uses in all their descriptions… "the $$$ and hard work has already been done for you”

the result? Over 1200 listings…. Hundreds upon hundreds of high grade books too. So many friggin spider-man 300’s.

This is devastating.

listings go back to 2015

 

That would have to mean (if all the listings you found truly are the same seller) that prior to 2016 he sold under a different account since he only has 723 items sold on his account made in 2016 

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

I keep finding weird inconsistencies in his subs/books - if it is to be believed 100% that you can see everything in a submission just by continuing the last 3 numbers.

This book UXM 266 9.8 Cert # 2120143023 custom label which Briva sold on 11/21/23 - when you look up the cert and see it was graded on 10/30/23

*going on what I am led to believe* when you look up the 2 books after (024) (025) or (022 021) - you can see these were part of a submission in 2020 - so leads me to believe they rescan when they reholder - and that's what he did as part of his M.O.

SO - with that in mind

 

The UXM MJ 9.8 he pulled off ebay when the mess hit the fan is gone from ebay, I was able to get a photo of it - 

When you check the cert number 4301294003 you can see it was graded 8/4/23 and the scans show a standard blue label, but if he reholdered it, why didn't they scan it? 

What I am questioning here is the fact that there are LOTS of inconsistencies in his submissions on CGC's end.

 

Maybe I am just going insane tho.

This is so convoluted and I am really sorry if you want to beat me with a dead fish.

[Swagglehaus]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:04 PM, agamoto said:

Hoo boy…

so I use WorthPoint, which allows searching through historical records of eBay sales going back to the beginning.

i searched for a phrase briva3 uses in all their descriptions… "the $$$ and hard work has already been done for you”

the result? Over 1200 listings…. Hundreds upon hundreds of high grade books too. So many friggin spider-man 300’s.

This is devastating.

listings go back to 2015

 

Made me think of this scene 2:49

 

[D2]

Sorry to ask if this has already been asked, but has CGC or anyone from CGC acknowledged any of this yet? At all?

Has there been any official word whatsoever or so far has this been conversation exclusively outside of CGC?

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:49 PM, D2 said:

Sorry to ask if this has already been asked, but has CGC or anyone from CGC acknowledged any of this yet? At all?

Has there been any official word whatsoever or so far has this been conversation exclusively outside of CGC?

Yeah someone linked to the response here:

Spoiler

No, theres no official response

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N
for the funny

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:31 PM, GDN said:

But the cert numbers aren't changing.  They are referencing the original cert number which is a legit book and was submitted with other legit books by an honest collector.  There is no record of the re-holder other than the new photos.  The grading date doesn't change, the cert # doesn't change.  We don't even know the date of the re-holder.

So you're saying you'd still buy those books?

[agamoto]

It's the same dude... Here's a listing from 2016, Note the lines "The $$$ and Hard work has already been done for you." He literally has the capitalized H on the "hard" in every listing going back 13 years. The phrase "Furthermore, CGC has assigned the perfect grading" has been reused in many of his auctions, including recent ones. 

[JC25427N]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:53 PM, agamoto said:

It's the same dude... Here's a listing from 2016, Note the lines "The $$$ and Hard work has already been done for you." He literally has the capitalized H on the "hard" in every listing going back 13 years. The phrase "Furthermore, CGC has assigned the perfect grading" has been reused in many of his auctions, including recent ones. 

Yeah that checks out, a listing from Feb 2016 and his account was made in Feb 2016. What I'm more interested in is whether the listings prior to 2016 are the same dude, because that means there was another account he was selling under at the time.

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N