ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:11 AM, Steven Valdez said:

At first I chuckled, but on reflection it's really no laughing matter.

Very true. The reliance on automated processes is starting to expose the problem that the modern human mind isn't capable of holding it's attention span long enough to focus on the job at hand.

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:04 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/cgccomicsfans

Maybe this Admin is a CGC employee?

That wouldn't make any sense since they are keeping-up this thread. It's probably got something to do with panic of the reputation shiner CGC is taking from this impacting the worth of their collections or inventory.

The weak sauce we've come to expect from those too invested to use this as a learning moment or the ephipany they need.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/23/2023 at 3:12 AM, VintageComics said:

Some people are always sour about CGC and want them to fail.

You're on a CGC message board. Of course you're mostly going to hear about CGC problems.

The only time you're going to hear about non-CGC problems is if someone posts about them here, and since the raw side of the hobby is probably many times bigger than the certified side of the hobby, you're getting an unequal representation. 

People need to learn to scale their perspective to reality. 

I usually hear about these brouhahas on YouTube, such as that acetate debacle and the Hero Restoration travesty. I only came over here today because I heard of this latest drama on YT.

[paqart]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:33 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I mean, there's LiDAR that can uncover lost Mayan cities under dense rainforest, surely there must be some app for accurately grading comics by now.

FYI: I was an art director in the video game industry, did visual effects in movies, taught computer graphics for 12 years at university, wrote three CG textbooks, and got my PhD in a study of CG artists. I am familiar with this technology and kept it in mind when I wrote what I did about lighting. To scan a comic to pick up the information needed, it would have to be a 3D scan made by a scanner more sensitive than I ever heard of (due to paper thickness). Then, software would have to be able to align the scans, and take into account some changes that are acceptable while knowing which are not. The dataset would be huge for a scan like that. It wouldn't be practical.

It would be practical to do something like it for a scene in a movie about comic book detectives because then you only need two scans total and a human could help align the scans. In reality, the process needed to do it at scale wouldn't work. At least, not yet.

[jsilverjanet]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:21 PM, AbsoluteCarnage said:

On 12/21/2023 at 7:03 PM, Sigur Ros said:

I'm taking bets.  What is CGC thinking right this very moment...?

1) OMG, we were re-slabbing without looking at the books ?!?

2)  We've been falling for it for how many books?  How many years?

3)  You think Mike will get naked at the Christmas party again?

Good thing that isn't an official poll. You forgot the crack option ;-)

4) did we order enough crack for @greggy at the x-mas party

[Gonzimodo]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:14 AM, skybolt said:

Yup, that makes a lot of sense and would explain the same book being resubmitted 10 times.

This also continues to reduce the accuracy/usefulness of the registry, sadly.

It is something that an AI review of submissions could theoretically help to prevent, though, at least for books that have been scanned by CGC.

[skybolt]

Sorry to keep harking on this. Going back to what 9.9newsstand mentioned a few days ago, the seller had previously told him that he had connections at CGC, and that he calls in favors from someone higher up. Again, I'm not saying this CGC employee was getting kick back or was in on the scam. However, having someone in that position does help this seller launder some books. For example, if A.) the higher up CGC employee has had a good relationship with this guy for many years (again, nothing nefarious), and B.) believes there's zero chance someone can open a CGC case without detection, they could've potentially believed this guy was on the up and up with his constant complaints. All he had to do was call the CGC employee and say your guys screwed up again with my submission and forgot to give me a Mark Jeweler or Newsstand designation. If the CGC employee trusted this guy and wanted to make sure they didn't lose a valuable customer, they would A.) likely not check if he was the original submitter of this book and B.) tell a much lower level employee to fix this situation promptly and add the designations via reholdering.

This relationship would also come into play with previously green labeled books being sent into grading with a married insert. If an experienced CGC grader was able to detect it, especially on multiple books, the higher up employee would ease their minds and say don't worry about it. This guy is a long time submitter and sometimes he buys books missing pieces unknowingly. This preferential treatment would ultimately not raise suspicion company wide. If the seller got the blue label designation on these books, then he would sell them. If he got a green label, then he likely tried to grade the book again or just use it for switcheroo purposes.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/23/2023 at 3:20 AM, skybolt said:

However, having someone in that position does help this seller launder some books.

Hmmmm.... 'book laundering'. That's really what this is all about.

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:59 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I note with interest that whenever there's some major drama/scandal in the comics community, CGC is at the centre of it.

It's either CGC, Whatnot or Epic_Nation.

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:28 AM, boreds said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but Briva3 also has sold sports cards (and other cards) through PSA. If you look up his name, you'll see it's linked to many card sales as well.

Like this one for example. Assuming this is the same person(s), I wonder if this scam goes well beyond merely comics, and CGC.

https://www.psacard.com/auctionprices/basketball-cards/1989-fleer-sticker/michael-jordan/auction/-6545564498109031672

 

 

see, I wasn't too far off when I posted this 2 days ago: "PSA GRADING CARD SLABS PLASTIC ULTRASONIC WELDING MACHINE"  He probably cut his teeth on cards before moving to comics.

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:12 AM, VintageComics said:

Some people are always sour about CGC and want them to fail.

Some of us just expect them to own the responsibilities, and take accountability, for the self-appoiinted role of third-party grader. We lost the impartialtiy a LONG time ago, but there is still a duty to deliver on other aspects of their service. 

To lump us all as wanting to see them fail is a gross misrepresentation of the facts, and a false equivalence. 

I was speaking to someone yesterday about this very thing. I have PM's from people on multiple soc med sites, lamenting about "issues" with graders. Many, sending multiple messages, ranging from the way the services  "mishandles" and/or "misrepresent" what is ultimately being delivered to them. 

Every time I ask, "hey, has this issue caused you to possibly reconsider ever sending in your stuff to grade?" Do I even need to tell you what 99% of the response is?

So, in sum, to many of us, myself included, there is a tiring movie reel, worse than the predictable plot or rerun, and that is that these services undeservedly enrich themselves by delivering sub-par services.

Maybe we just want them to do what they are supposed to do, without the lamest and weakest excuses imaginable that are used to allow them to get away with what they have for as long as they have.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by comicwiz

[jsilverjanet]

On 12/21/2023 at 7:40 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

Soo many people want CGC to fail/fold because of this. Just from what I’ve read between YouTube, social media and here. Pretty sad if you ask me. Ultimately, CGC will be fine. This isn’t the first time someone’s defrauded a company, and won’t be last. CGC will figure out what’s going on and handle accordingly. Just like PSA and other prominent collecting companies they’re too imbedded in the industry. There’s also soo many dealers, comic shops and collectors who have millions and millions into graded books. So it’s not in our industry’s interest for CGC to lose their credibility. The only thing that would change my mind is if it became obvious that they were in on it, and I don’t mean one rogue employee but the company as a whole. I’m 100% positive that’s not the case though, just don’t think they would ever do that. I think people need to relax some, wait to get more details and go from there.

And whoever this gutter trash is that scammed CGC and the community, there’s a special place in hell for them. I hope they’re publicly shamed, sued and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I don't want CGC to fail/fold but I certainly want them to clean up their mess

look at the countless errors over the past few years, and their responses to those errors

it's kinda hard to be in their corner when they come across as not caring as much as the group here (as an example)

they are indifferent and lack a sense of urgency (with the past errors/instances) to fix their product/image

and why should they, people continue to send in books despite all the warning signs along the way

if they fail/fold, it will be because their own mistakes, their own wrong doing

 

[Steven Valdez]

I don't 'want' CGC to fail either. I just wish they'd stop doing so.

[uncannyjames]

There is a certain level of failure that is acceptable. For instance, I can accept that CGC might miss a married cover a small fraction of the time. Or that a book has had a chemical bath for cleaning. The techniques they use to detect stuff like that is not going to be 100%, but it should be high enough that the collecting community still finds trust in their authentication and certification process.

What IS unacceptable is slabbing a book with a blue label that is missing a value stamp OR A WHOLE PAGE because they simply took the word of the submitter and performed NO evaluation of the book before re-slabbing it. This isn't just a collector disagreeing with a grader's grade; this is CGC's certification seal being 100% compromised.

[jcjames]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:38 AM, Mikey C said:

 Saying there’s no proof that the 252s are different in front of his wall of CGC slabs. What a joke. 

He might be one of them.

Not accusing, but I think this thread and the ASM & IH are just two snowflakes resting on the tip of an iceberg that is deep and massive. 

[Gonzimodo]

I love the idea of CGC and what they say they do.  I want to submit my books for grading and slabbing.

One of the reasons I originally came to the boards was to see if their service is worth the price and that I can trust them with my books.  Unfortunately, I just don't think that's the case right now.

I may be too pessimistic and focus too much on the negative things I've seen since coming here, but it's my money and my comics here, so I'll do what I think is best.

I absolutely love the boards, though.  

[VintageComics]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:25 AM, comicwiz said:

On 12/22/2023 at 11:12 AM, VintageComics said:

Some people are always sour about CGC and want them to fail.

To lump us all as wanting to see them fail is a gross misrepresentation of the facts, and a false equivalence. 

In your world does some = all?

I was neither talking about you NOR to you. 

This thread is starting to look like a mob so I'll let it breath. 

[Silver Surfer]

Not directed at you but some of the apologist tone/comments being posted make me roll my eyes. There is no sugar coating this, assume it’s much worse than what has been shown in this thread. 

[Comical21]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:04 AM, DC# said:

Would be interesting to know what has been happening at PSA 

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/psa-grading-buys-genamint/

 

I think PSA has been slowly implementing AI, but not in the actual grading of cards.  For now, they have been using it as a means of "fingerprinting" cards to detect if a certain card has been graded before and just being sent back in for another attempt to get a better grade.

I think the only company currently using AI to grade cards is TAG.  However, they have restricted the cards they grade to the modern era.  From memory, I think the reason they gave for this is because older cards have more variables such as how they were cut from the factory or various other things that were harder to have a machine learn from.

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/22/2023 at 9:34 AM, Silver Surfer said:

There is no sugar coating this, assume it’s much worse than what has been shown in this thread. 

My personal credo in life is that if you see something like this once, there's plenty of times you haven't seen it. Definitely much worse than what we're seeing here.