ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[skybolt]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:16 PM, grendel013 said:

I started to read through this thread but it got very long very quickly. Instead of trying to slip and already lower grade inner well into a carefully opened higher grade outer well, is it possible the fraudster just has access to brand new CGC outer wells and the sonic welder thingy? Maybe I'm not knowledgeable enough about the encapsulation process but if I had a case of new outer wells (which I've seen available in comic shops) and the right tool to seal, couldn't I be swapping books all day?

You mean like send a couple of CGC slabs to a factory in China to see if they can replicate it in bulk?

[mephistopheles]

On 12/22/2023 at 2:15 PM, comicwiz said:

Can someone post a clear front and back pic of the following s/n: 1309487005

I'm trying to see if it matches with another of these

I should point out, I have a pic of it off Worthpoint, but it's too blurry to compare

It was from 2015, can't see scans.

[thehumantorch]

On 12/22/2023 at 8:08 AM, Iconic1s said:

You are correct, but this is just ANOTHER reason why the census is worthless MOST of the time. I’m not saying I have a problem with CPR, even though we know we’re “supposed” to return the cracked label  many don’t.  This guy just made it so much worse though, if he in fact did keep making a 9.8 back into a 9.8, so he could fraudulently turn lower grade books into “9.8 holdered” books.  Purpose of CPR (I thought) was to bump, lets say, your 9.4-9.6 to a 9.8 and be done with it.  if the book’s previous label isn’t returned that’s a bummer but not as bad as this guy adding numerous 9.8’s using the same book.

You guys know as well as I do that we often times base asking/offering prices on census population… for anyone collecting the kind of books he targeted, that tool just became as worthless as a hammer without a head.

I still think this is all on CGC for providing this window of opportunity. I looked carefully at CGC’s description of their holder and label last night and if you look carefully it’s really all about “preservation” and “presentation.”  I don’t really read anything about guaranteeing the holder’s contents as authentic, more that the holder itself is authentic.  Very clever I think!

While CGC deserves blame for selling a service that can be manipulated it's not all on CGC.  Let's share some blame for this POS seller for manipulating the system and knowingly ripping off collectors for quick gain.

[JC25427N]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:23 PM, thehumantorch said:

While CGC deserves blame for selling a service that can be manipulated it's not all on CGC.  Let's share some blame for this POS seller for manipulating the system and knowingly ripping off collectors for quick gain.

Hey, stop that, you apologist 

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:22 PM, mephistopheles said:

It was from 2015, can't see scans.

How about 2022? 

Certification: 4115260001

[lostboys]

This is a very complicated case, man.

You know...a lot of ins...a lot of outs...a lot of what have yous.

[migmtl76]

Damsn another point of view....

 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:07 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Don't even mention this on the FB CGC fan page. I just got the ban hammer for asking about it.

What kind of admin would not want a forum of 37,000 members to NOT know this is happening, especially when people were scammed as recently as this week? 

If I were the 9.9newsstand guy that first blew the lid off of this I might be a little worried about potential legal action. Sure, I’m convinced they are different books, but we’re talking about a half a billion dollar company that just potentially lost ALL credibility because you have a good eye… if they can’t completely suppress this, they are not going down easy.  Imagine GM having a recall on every car they made in the last 20 years??

[comicwiz]

I think I may have found another... just waiting for a clearer pic, but it's looking to be the same thing, green to blue

[s-dali]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:07 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Don't even mention this on the FB CGC fan page. I just got the ban hammer for asking about it.

What kind of admin would not want a forum of 37,000 members to NOT know this is happening, especially when people were scammed as recently as this week? 

I this is the group Andrew Rochon is an admin of, I'm not surprised. I got booted from there YEARS ago for the high crime of disagreeing with him over something. 

As for the scam, I hope the thundering silence from CGC means that they are concerned about this and looking into things.

[Superman2006]

Back in the old days, CGC used to heat seal the label to the inner well. With that design, I don't think a scammer could simply replace a label or an inner well and seal it back up or send it back to CGC for a reholder.

Approximately when did CGC stop heat sealing the label to the inner well?

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:32 PM, comicwiz said:

How about 2022? 

Certification: 4115260001

Graded in 2022.  No photo

Grader Notes

Missing Marvel Value Stamp (QUALIFIED) page(s) 10 affects story
Missing panel (QUALIFIED) page(s) 14 affects story
crease left center of front cover breaks color
crease right center of front cover breaks color
light creasing to cover
spine stress lines to cover

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:47 AM, mephistopheles said:

I think his story that he calls in favors from CGC is just deflection from his scamming.

It very well could be.

And, we have no reason to believe anything he says.

But...

The answer to all the questions of "how did they miss that?", "why couldn't they see that?", "did they even open the books?"....  could easily be "Inside man".

[agamoto]

On 12/22/2023 at 10:23 AM, thehumantorch said:

While CGC deserves blame for selling a service that can be manipulated it's not all on CGC.  Let's share some blame for this POS seller for manipulating the system and knowingly ripping off collectors for quick gain.

The problem is, there's absolutely no way of knowing how many others out there have also taken advantage of this process flaw in the same way. The bulk of any blame needs to rest at the feet of the company who dares to call themselves Certify Guaranty Company. 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:33 PM, migmtl76 said:

Damsn another point of view....

 

He obviously didn’t see the comparison pics earlier on this thread. 

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:39 PM, namisgr said:

Graded in 2022.  No photo

Grader Notes

Missing Marvel Value Stamp (QUALIFIED) page(s) 10 affects story
Missing panel (QUALIFIED) page(s) 14 affects story
crease left center of front cover breaks color
crease right center of front cover breaks color
light creasing to cover
spine stress lines to cover

Well, I don't know if we are ready for this mystery to become even more complicated, but I'm pretty sure I found another one. This one is a big time head scratcher. 

Allow me to post in sequence please as there is a lot I want to show, the before pic (the one I'm asking for clearer pics) shows just enough to make the connection, it's the other part that is going to complicate the heck out of this. 

Grab your popcorn and brace yourselves for this...

[comicwiz]

This one takes us back to a two-for auction, with an IH 181 CGC graded 7.0 qualified. I will attach photos for this listing. I want you to pay close attention to the top right corner - that horizonotal colour break. And that vertical break that runs parallel to the spine, starting from the arrow, down Wolvie's forearm. I know the pics arent the greatest, but you should at least see those characteristics well enough to compare to the other.

Edited December 23, 2023 by comicwiz
mephistopheles provided higher res, close-up pics

[skybolt]

At minimum, CGC should come out with a new policy/service where they would continue the re-holdering process for any books valued at $400 or less. Then a new service called re-exam/re-holder would come into play for books valued over $400. This new service would require CGC staff to remove the book from the inner well, exam it carefully vs. other scans on file and for married/missing pieces and regrade if necessary. The submitter would be responsible for the extra charge if this is not their submission that came back with a cracked case or missing designation (within a 2 week period).   

Edited December 22, 2023 by skybolt

[comicwiz]

This is remarkable, and posted for posterity because I want you to notice the date this was graded:

[uncannyjames]

On 12/22/2023 at 1:33 PM, migmtl76 said:

Damsn another point of view....

 

You do realize that StickyGoose is to comics what flat-earthers are to science.