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ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC
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Started by spidermanbeyond,

9,029 posts in this topic

Gonzimodo

Gonzimodo

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On 12/22/2023 at 11:47 AM, Stefan_W said:

Mentioned this before, but not all books that are originally graded as 9.8 come back as 9.8 during a resub. There are wrinkles to this process. 

Yes, that's definitely a risk, but if you have a pristine 9.8, it's theoretically possible to have it graded multiple times and get multiple 9.8s.  Even if it comes back as a 9.6, he could still use the case and certification number, but it just wouldn't be as profitable.  It just seems that it would be more profitable to use the same "base" comic multiple times than to have to buy multiple 9.8s for this scheme.  And ultimately, when it's no longer of any use, you just sell it off.

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LDarkseid1

LDarkseid1

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I was enjoying reading comments in here for a time, but I’ve said my peace and could care less now. Once it starts to feel vitriolic to your fellow collectors I’m out. Also it’s just too many pages to keep going through haha. Enjoy the show ya’ll. Will look forward to hearing CGC’s eventual reply, and what happens with this whole situation. Until then, I have 10 books being graded and will be sending more in the coming months. I guess unless the sky falls and people get what they want with no more CGC.

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paqart

paqart

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On 12/22/2023 at 11:38 AM, skybolt said:

Thinking about all the logistics involved with this scam, I find it hard to believe that the seller is the only person involved in this scheme. Yes, this person is likely coordinating this stuff with CGC and selling the slabs, but I bet he has a couple of guys in the back room doing all the grunt work. There's no way this person could do all this at once without making mistakes earlier.

This, in combination with the money needed to pull it off, are why I think it could be organized crime.

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MAR1979

MAR1979

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On 12/22/2023 at 11:55 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

.... Until then, I have 10 books being graded and will be sending more in the coming months. I guess unless the sky falls and people get what they want with no more CGC.

Exactly the Attitude CGC's parent Company banks on and why there will be no responses and no changes from them

Edited by MAR1979
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Gonzimodo

Gonzimodo

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On 12/22/2023 at 12:01 PM, Axelrod said:

Maybe this guy currently has a submission at CGC!

Maybe they are taking a closer look at that one this time!

Based on the submission numbers, CGC knows who it is.  If he's a high volume customer, you are probably correct!  (thumbsu

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MAR1979

MAR1979

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Posted (edited)
On 12/22/2023 at 12:03 PM, Gonzimodo said:

Based on the submission numbers, CGC knows who it is.  If he's a high volume customer, you are probably correct!  (thumbsu

 

On 12/22/2023 at 12:06 PM, mephistopheles said:

It's going to be funny when CGC spanks him with a box full of 8.0 purples.

 

even if that is the case, CGC will ship the books back to the scammer who will then begin the game anew with a cohort submitting. Since CGC ain't going to change anything it will be nothing more than one-time blip to the scummers.

Edited by MAR1979
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Bo1983

Bo1983

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On 12/22/2023 at 5:54 AM, agamoto said:

Trust CGC will do everything they can to isolate this to one person, but since it's a scam that's worked remarkably well on some very high dollar books, over and over again, we may never know how many tried and succeeded doing the same thing. It could be one person doing it, it could be 20, it could be 200 people. We only even know about this because someone was sharp enough to spot the obvious problems on a swapped-out book when one of the miscreants got too greedy. 

If nothing else comes of this, at least now I have a pretty arguable reason why I've seen so many 9.8's that sure as hell looked like 9.2s 

It could be tens of thousands of books out there that’s why I don’t like slabs!

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paqart

paqart

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My potentially totally wrong guess:

  1. The bad guy is scamming comics, cards, and coins
  2. The bad guy owns equipment needed to seal slabs of various sizes, at the least
  3. The bad guy is doing this fraud as a business. Meaning, it isn't a side scam. It's all he does.
  4. His minimal annual investment is $100k. Meaning, that is his cost of doing "business."
  5. To be profitable, he has to churn $200k in sales every year.
  6. The comics we've seen so far are in the $5k-$15k value range. Average to $10k each. He's doing 20+ comics a year
  7. He does not sell the raw 9.8's he needs to get slabs, or not often. This is a fixed cost that is not recouped, but rolled over for more fraud.
  8. The bad guy has a stable of targeted issues he deals in, and not much else
  9. The bad guy cannot afford to have his cash flow compromised by slow TATS. Therefore, he has multiple 9.8's of the same issues in his stable, so that he has multiple submissions in the queue at all times.
  10. The bad guy has designed his scam so that he receive new fraudulently encapsulated comics every 30-60 days. If not, he goes broke.
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sledgehammer

sledgehammer

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On 12/22/2023 at 11:03 AM, skybolt said:
On 12/22/2023 at 10:43 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

You always trust the word of a known fraudster? I take anything that guy says with the tiniest grain of salt until proof is shown.

Please explain.

The fraudulent seller was explaining to 9.9 (from the youtube video expose), why he sent the book back to CGC for the MJ insert (which was probably BS).

Anything said by him is virtually useless, as he couldn't justify his fraud in any way.

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comicwiz

comicwiz

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Posted (edited)
On 12/22/2023 at 11:34 AM, VintageComics said:

In your world does some = all? ???

I was neither talking about you NOR to you. 

This thread is starting to look like a mob so I'll let it breath. 

Look man, you don't need to respond to any of this back and forth either.

And the only reason I quoted it is because I think it's an important enough point of emphasis that needs to be disproven, as it becomes an afront to the work/input/analysis people have put into this when you generalize the way you have.

There's no mob, but don't just suggest we are doing this to see them fail.

A more responsibly handled approach to something like this is the company begins to make swift moves to limit the acrtivites of this seller. To take those slabs out of circulation. And to issue an announcement on corrective remedies to arrest this.

Part of the reason why it's wrong to suggest we want to see them fail is because of the amount of volunteer time any of us put into doing what we do. Deliberate or not, CGC has developed a fact pattern to commodify and depend on US doing the grunt/detective work that leads to these revelations in deviation from standard practice and service. 

Edited by comicwiz
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Stefan_W

Stefan_W

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On 12/22/2023 at 12:10 PM, sledgehammer said:

We have NO idea how this actually went down yet.

This is an important point to remember for those wondering why CGC has not come out with a statement yet. Fact finding comes first so the statement is informed, legal comes next so you know what you can say, and an official statement may follow after all of that. 

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skybolt

skybolt

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Posted (edited)
On 12/22/2023 at 11:09 AM, sledgehammer said:

The fraudulent seller was explaining to 9.9 (from the youtube video expose), why he sent the book back to CGC for the MJ insert (which was probably BS).

Anything said by him is virtually useless, as he couldn't justify his fraud in any way.

Thank you. My bad, I read it as 99newsstand was a known fraudster. Now I get it. 

Edited by skybolt
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skybolt

skybolt

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On 12/22/2023 at 10:47 AM, mephistopheles said:

I am skeptical that anyone at CGC is knowingly involved. I think his story that he calls in favors from CGC is just deflection from his scamming. And we don't know that he hasn't made mistakes.

I asked earlier if anyone submitted reslab that got regraded lower. No response. So I am 95% sure they are not thoroughly examining re-holders.

It's not so much the employee is knowingly involved, but if he is going against CGC policy by allowing a Mark Jeweler designation to be added as part of the re-holdering process (because he trusts this guy), then he becomes complicit in this scam.

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