ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[agamoto]

Just wow... Who wants a DIY grading slab that's ultrasonically welded at home?

[Lightning55]

On 12/24/2023 at 10:34 AM, MAR1979 said:

Cert numbers are in effect generated the day the submissions Electronic Form is filled out.

This is not the case.

When you complete the submission form online, you get a packing slip # that looks like CGC############.

The submission is not assigned a number until CGC receives the package, opens it, inputs the submission, and loads it onto your dashboard. At that time, each comic in the submission receives a cert # starting with the submission # and then appending 001, 002, etc.

But definitely this is not a true FIFO system. If you submit a sub for pressing and grading, you get a submission number. Right after that, your Walk-thru sub gets the next higher number. Your first sub has 2 tat's affecting the return timeline, pressing and grading. The Walk-thru could be back to you and up for sale within 2 weeks. Depending on tier, you could be waiting a year for your earlier sub to ship. Especially during the jam up of 2021-2022.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:26 PM, VintageComics said:

I believe this is incorrect. 

Feel free to share.  This came from a buyer in this thread.

[VintageComics]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:15 AM, trademarkcomics said:

Every time I see him called "Roy", it reminds me of Quigley Down Under, Die Hard and Knight & Day*. 

 

*Pretty sure than covers all movies with a main character called "Roy" ...and only one of them were actually named "Roy".  Oh, wait this is totally OFF-TOPIC. Sorry, Roy! 

Actually, my favorite 'Roy' character was Michael Shannon in Midnight Special, a TERRIFIC movie, and I watched this movie a few days after I went on a date with a woman named Shannon, which etched it into my memory. It was a pretty neat co-incidence. 

If you like Superhero stories, this movie is a must see. 

EDITED out spoilers. 

It's great. Watch it. 

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by VintageComics

[paqart]

On 12/24/2023 at 1:55 PM, EastEnd1 said:

A corollary to that that I have is why so much difference in value for a newstand vs direct vs foreign variant vs Mark Jewelers, etc?  The content is the same in each case.  I've never really understood why where a book was sold should matter, regardless of whether one type of seller took better care of the comic than another.  And the cover differences based on what the price or UPC code looks like (which again have nothing to do with the creative content) just strike me as irrelevant.  But that's just me and I can understand why some collectors might feel different.  Not intending to derail on what seems to be a very serious matter.

My quick answer:

1. I prefer newsstands to directs because they remind me of buying comics off a spinner rack as a kid. That nostalgia is a feeling I like. Simple as that. For the same reason, I prefer comics with a newsstand date stamp on the cover.
2. I prefer MJI comics to those without, because they were overseas with soldiers in sometimes very harsh conditions and somehow made there way back intact. I respect our soldiers, and these comics are just a way to remind me of that. It also affects the reading experience, because reading them puts me, at least mentally, in the shoes of a soldier sitting outside the PX reading a comic before he has to peel potatoes, fly a jet, do a drill, or something else.
3. I prefer UK and Canadian variants because they are newsstands, but rarer than US newsstands, which makes them harder to track down. Finding them is like a treasure hunt.

[BrashL]

There's another simple solution to this that no one has brought up. Every certification gets a picture online and grading notes. Whoever is making the purchase can verify for themselves if the book in the slab is the one that was graded. It's inexcusable now that that every slab doesn't have notes of some kind, but even more so going forward. (And it might even help the consistency of grading!)

[Lightning55]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:23 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

We know the first name is Brees

On 12/24/2023 at 3:26 PM, VintageComics said:

I believe this is incorrect. 

There is a screencap earlier where the buyer is communicating with briva, addressing him or her as Brees, and getting a response. 

Could be a typo though, as in Brie or Bree.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:56 PM, Lightning55 said:

There is a screencap earlier where the buyer is communicating with briva, addressing him or her as Brees, and getting a response. 

Could be a typo though, as in Brie or Bree.

The buyer of a Hulk 340 from this seller said that name Brees was on the box they received. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:53 PM, BrashL said:

There's another simple solution to this that no one has brought up. Every certification gets a picture online and grading notes.

It's been brought up, and shot down.

Only recently have their been images available, and even then, the scammed reholder is probably showing the current book it is holding in the image, not the original one that was removed. So only false comfort there.

Grading notes for 9.8's - good luck finding such an animal.

[Lightning55]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:00 AM, drotto said:

Cert numbers can be thrown off a bit by conventions. The forms filled out online are sequential by when they are generated.  At conventions, CGC will still use hand filled out pre-printed submission forms.  Not sure how those forms numbers fall in line with the numbers generated online.  You also have to remember when people submit books for a press, the pressors will have clients generate the submission forms under their accounts, and it may be weeks or even moths before these forms hit CGC.  The numbers will still always go up, but the exact sequence will be interrupted. 

Nothing gets a sub number until it lands at CGC and they input the packing slip. 

[Stefan_W]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:58 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The buyer of a Hulk 340 from this seller said that name Brees was on the box they received. 

Yeah, this is where the name surfaced in this discussion.

I still find it problematic. Without meaning to beat a dead horse, I have a box under my tree that says it is from Santa. If it is not from an official document I do not put much stock in it. The scammer may have just been a big Drew Brees fan and decided to use the name since it would be easy for him to remember. 

[comicwiz]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:09 PM, Prince Namor said:

Good thread for reading on this topic. 

Master Chief from September 2, 2021, Page 44:

 

I can't help but wonder what may have happened if an investigative journalist, or the mainstream media at large, had taken notice of the allegations and outright shenanigans that took place right after, and in the subsequent years following, the rollout of the comic-book certification age.

While the hobby did have a "news outlet" publish an article in the attempt to address collector concerns following the discovery of the manipulated books from the Nicolas Cage Collection, as highlighted earlier in the thread with the posting of the CBG article, nothing else of any significance materialized to shed light on illicit behavior or root out elements that were alleged to be corrupt within the hobby. Not one. And that included arguably the biggest scandal to hit the hobby. That being the Jason Ewart trimming fiasco.

While the Ewart scandal generated deep public outrage within the walls of this and other related forums, it received no interest as a newsworthy story by the hobby press, including CBG. And that was even after several well-meaning collectors lobbied the publisher of CBG to research and compile some type of report that would deliver consumer awareness to the public about the matter.         

As Joe mentioned earlier, much of the tomfoolery discovered in the earlier days of the certification age was laid bare by astute collectors and presented on comic forums such as these. Unfortunately, those revelations, of which many appeared to be connected in one degree or another to the apparent conflict-of-interest between Halperin, Heritage, and CGC, went nowhere other than their little corners of cyberspace.

Many of us were surprised by this, and continue to be surprised to this day. The lack of press interest was, on its own, noteworthy. Perhaps it was designed to be that way. Let comic geeks gnash their teeth on meaningless message boards far away from the public eye while the hobby is fleeced to no end. It would seem so, in my opinion. Because for 20 years the certification establishment and its many lickspittles in the hobby assured us that everything was fine and that there was no validity to any of the conspiracy theories..."Remember how it was before CGC?" They would drone on about. "We're building back trust within the hobby...we've standardized the science of grading and have created a buying and selling tool for the internet that keeps the crooks at bay." Meanwhile, they'd continue to snub recognized hobby restoration standards by turning a blind eye toward disassembly, erasure, cleaning, restoration removal, pressing, etc. in an effort to make possible the key component of the crack-out game (manipulation) to drive the top-line.

In reading the latest Seth Abramson story, I was reminded of another who used to post rather frequently in the early days about hobby ongoings. He presented some of the first rather shocking manipulation examples bearing certified universal grades while editorializing his message from a perspective that he knew exactly what was going on. That individual was Daniel Dupcak.

Now before I get flamed for being some kind of Dupcak apologist, I'm not. I was right there in the trenches with a lot of you battling his dubious behavior. But if we remove the emotion and put aside Dupcak's history and just read his comments on the issue, he does raise some very interesting points. Points that relate to the allegations being made today by Abramson and others. I personally believe Dupcak knew too much, someone with inside information, and was seen as a liability from the powers that be. So, he was silenced from the boards. He did have a way of striking a nerve and getting people riled up, that's for sure.        

Here's a screen capture of comments by Dupcak from 9 years ago, using one of his many aliases, about the auctioning of the Cage collection. It's from the long defunct Comics Corral message boards. While I have studied the liquidation of the Cage collection, I have concluded with a high degree of confidence that some of the things he is saying are commensurate with the findings. The remarks he makes echo the comments of today.

That video ties in nicely with the continued efforts of boardies like @MasterChief, who also recently showed the losses on 290 Promise Collection books. In that video, Jobst does something very interesting, but more on this in a little bit. To your point on the need for an investigative journalist to cover this story, our beat, Jobst and Abramson were both relegated as "hacks" by people on these very boards. I saw right through those agendas, and as Jobst reveals examples of "record-breaking" WATA games that spearheaded that farcical market frenzy, with the exact same graded games reappearing in a slew of Nov auctions, nearly all showing astronomical losses, we know who was right with their concerns from go. 

On the point about what Jobst exposed, he demonstrates how HA used the exact same images from those "record-breaking" sales. The theory he advances is that the buyer just left them with Heritage for 2 years, in their vault, waiting for the right time to cash out. While I don't agree with this assessment, there is so much I could unpack about why I believe this part of the video is important. I just do not want to derail this thread. Suffice it to say, that the "underhandedness" being discussed is expemplified thoroughly by what went down with WATA, not only in relation to the people involved, their interconnections to comics, but the absolute sloppy, lame, weaksauce b.s. of trying to get away with something people were calling offside from every direction.

And in comparison to the issues with Danny, we now have hecklers who assume that position to dispute or contest because of money. They see these expose's as interfering with making bank. How different is that really from someone who was deceiving on the scale of Dupcak? Isn't it still activity potentially advancing the proceeds through the crime of fraud by deception? Where are they now when that record-breaking sale of the WATA 9.8 Mario lost $1M on resale? What concievable reason will we hear that counters Jobst or Abramson, when the reality is they were both right. Dupcak was fairly knowledgeable, and knew how to gain acceptance even in private conversations. Unfortuantely, he was also someone that knew how to help himself with the knowledge/experiences he developed and utilized. Before robojo and methesulah, he was a participant in a number of important topics, and CGC decided not to even try the "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer" strategy in their decision to ban him. I think we are worse off now than we were back then, because every time another large scale scandal emerges, it could potentially become a source of information for the next copycat and/or bad actor to refine, and take it further.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:07 PM, Stefan_W said:

Yeah, this is where the name surfaced in this discussion.

I still find it problematic. Without meaning to beat a dead horse, I have a box under my tree that says it is from Santa. If it is not from an official document I do not put much stock in it. The scammer may have just been a big Drew Brees fan and decided to use the name since it would be easy for him to remember. 

Still it sounds familiar like there was suspect threads or posts a long time ago, but it could just be a case of deja vu. In short was so random there is no way to search for what I remember.

It's the closest info available but could be considered spec.

[BrashL]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:02 PM, Lightning55 said:

It's been brought up, and shot down.

Only recently have their been images available, and even then, the scammed reholder is probably showing the current book it is holding in the image, not the original one that was removed. So only false comfort there.

Grading notes for 9.8's - good luck finding such an animal.

Has an explanation ever been given for not having notes on every book? Especially the 9.8s? I honestly don't understand, there must be some thought on the book otherwise it should be a 10. It's baffling to me as this is essentially the service and expertise that makes the product worth paying for. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:27 AM, Bo1983 said:

Buy the book not the slab problem solved!

If you mean to buy raw copies, not slabs, you are correct. 

If you mean "Buy the book, not the grade.",  problem not solved.

You can look all you want at that Hulk 181 in the slab, and decide that the grade looks appropriate. But you're buying a comic with no MVS.

So maybe we still have a problem. 

[paqart]

@Buzzetta: I just spoke with a good friend who is an expert on the insurance industry and who is familiar with the ways they deal with fraud. He said the most likely scenario is that eBay pays the buyer out of pocket, without making an insurance claim. They wouldn't let anyone else know what they did, and wouldn't look for more victims. They would only deal with buyers who came to them.

If the size of the fraud was large enough, they might use stop loss insurance, but the total value of this one individual's fraud is probably too low to do that. Even if it hit a million dollars, it would be easier to eat the cost.

About the only way he could see eBay doing anything else is if they wanted to make an example of the scammer. This, he said, is not impossible. If that is what they decided to do, they would throw everything into going after the scammer and CGC. The goal would be to scare everyone involved so badly that they "voluntarily" clean up their act.

If, in the unlikely event eBay did make an insurance claim, the insurance company would be in a position to go after CGC, and likely would. He said the insurance company "would absolutely go after CGC first" and ignore the scammer, because that is where they are more likely to get paid. Then, as I thought, CGC would have to go after the scammer.

In other words, my scenario only happens if eBay does something that my insurance agency friend thinks is highly unlikely: make a claim on the insurance.

This has nothing to do with the business relationship between CGC and eBay. Instead, it is based on the value of the items involved, fraud volume, and gross sales.

After saying all that, he thinks CGC is "screwed." Their reputation is their product, and their product is this slab, which has clearly been compromised. Worse, they have slabs for other high value collectibles, like coins and stamps. What happened with comics does spillover reputational damage that would impact their stock value if they are a public company.

[Stefan_W]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:10 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Still it sounds familiar like there was suspect threads or posts a long time ago, but it could just be a case of deja vu. In short was so random there is no way to search for what I remember.

It's the closest info available but could be considered spec.

For sure. The pseudonym Briva has been sending off bells in my head since all of this started, but I am not young enough anymore to do an instant and accurate recall of where I know it from. It is all a part with interacting or dealing with many hundreds of comic folks along the way. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Stefan_W

[drporkchop]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:56 PM, Lightning55 said:

There is a screencap earlier where the buyer is communicating with briva, addressing him or her as Brees, and getting a response. 

Could be a typo though, as in Brie or Bree.

I was the buyer.

Not Bree, not Bries. It was Brees.

I was upset at the Hulk 340 book as it looked more like a 9.0 or 9.2 than the 9.8 that i purchased from him. I checked the physical box for his name before messaging him and found his name as Brees, which i then used to message him for refund.

Unfortunately i checked my Ebay Purchase history and cannot find his full name or address anywhere. Since i live in Canada, when ebay allowed the refund, they emailed me a DHL return label to their international Global shipping hub in Glendale heights IL, which was then forwarded to his home address in NY.

 

[Lightning55]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:11 PM, BrashL said:

Has an explanation ever been given for not having notes on every book? Especially the 9.8s? I honestly don't understand, there must be some thought on the book otherwise it should be a 10. It's baffling to me as this is essentially the service and expertise that makes the product worth paying for. 

This has been explained over and over throughout the years. CGC gives the book a grade. It's not a full appraisal, like you might get on your house.

The grader notes are primarily for internal use, grader to grader. They are not an all-inclusive list of defects or attributes. Usually you won't see any notes unless below 9.6. I've gotten 8.5's with no notes.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/25/2023 at 4:09 AM, comicwiz said:

I think we are worse off now than we were back then, because every time another large scale scandal emerges, it could potentially become a source of information for the next copycat and/or bad actor to refine, and take it further.

And that's why I'm skeptical of the talk here of 'the FBI is going to get involved' and 'eBay will SUE CGC'. Because the past has shown us that... no one outside of it takes the GRADING HOBBY seriously, to help EXPOSE the corruption and most of this stuff suspiciously just gets swept under the rug.