ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:55 PM, darkstar said:

I'm pretty sure those 5 books were submitted as Mechanical Errors and the 7001 and 7005 went to CCS after being reviewed by CGC, which is what caused the delay and grade date discrepancy with the other books in the order. And I think the scans on the certification page are the most recent scans of that book the last time CGC had it, not necessarily scans of the book that earned the 9.8 grade designation originally.  

Since you brought it up, you're assuming they are resubs to fix mechanical errors, that's not an irrational assumption. Neither is mine. But, have a close look at the other graded on the same "altered" date from the rest of the books from that submission group. The ASM 194. The "9.8" Newsstand. 

Zoom in a little closer...

You'd think if the books were resubmitted for a mechanical error, someone in QC might have spotted the glaring problem with that ASM194 that far removes it from the 9.8 grade it received.

 

[pdags]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:56 PM, paqart said:

How many people on this board have had so much good luck getting 9.8's?

He could be sending in 40 books and using pre-screening...  So we would only see the 9.8's.

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:03 PM, pdags said:

He could be sending in 40 books and using pre-screening...  So we would only see the 9.8's.

We can only speculate on that... What we don't have to speculate on is the numbers we ARE able to see, and how incredibly fortunate our friend is, over and over and over and over again. 

[brute_nm]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:41 PM, agamoto said:

You have worthpoint don't you? The links between the two sellers are quite pronounced when you look at their posting history. The phrases used, the background of the images, they're the same seller. The connection was made via instagram already too if I'm not mistaken. 

Using worthpoint, I've traced this seller back to ads as old as 2006. 

Yes correct, zaneglor_comics was his username on Instagram that posted on Grailz and directly interacted with 9.9newsstand. The zaneglor Instagram page is now private, but there are tons of old eBay listings from zaneglor from Phoenix, AZ to Queens, NY.

edited to include @pdags on the info

edit2 adding source, straight from 9.9newsstand's mouth

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by brute_nm

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:03 PM, agamoto said:

Since you brought it up, you're assuming they are resubs to fix mechanical errors, that's not an irrational assumption. Neither is mine. But, have a close look at the other graded on the same "altered" date from the rest of the books from that submission group. The ASM 194. The "9.8" Newsstand. 

Zoom in a little closer...

You'd think if the books were resubmitted for a mechanical error, someone in QC might have spotted the glaring problem with that ASM194 that far removes it from the 9.8 grade it received.

 

This reminds me of reading the first Overstreet Grading Guide and in it, it had a picture of Cap #100 with the grade of "NM" with a very similar crease off the staple. I'm like..."yeah right...that's not getting getting a NM grade from me!" 

[WNY]

Been tracking this thread closely over the last week… people have already given them a pat on the back, but I just think it is worth noting again @comicwiz @agamoto you two are doing an incredible job figuring out this person’s misdeeds with hard data and evidence. Really awesome job! Seems thankless I am sure, but I for one feel an immense sense of gratitude. 

[darkstar]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:03 PM, agamoto said:

Since you brought it up, you're assuming they are resubs to fix mechanical errors, that's not an irrational assumption. Neither is mine. But, have a close look at the other graded on the same "altered" date from the rest of the books from that submission group. The ASM 194. The "9.8" Newsstand. 

Zoom in a little closer...

You'd think if the books were resubmitted for a mechanical error, someone in QC might have spotted the glaring problem with that ASM194 that far removes it from the 9.8 grade it received.

 

The photos on the certification page for a book are scans from the most recent time that CGC had the book in their possession - whether that was for grading, a reholder, or a mechanical error or label update, which means the copy you are seeing in the certification page photos isn't necessarily the same copy that received the grade that is shown on the label or the grade on the certification page itself.

When one of the most popular topics on this forum is one that calls into question CGC's Quality Control and has nearly 6000 posts, we should probably stop thinking that our individual books see anywhere close to the amount of individual care and attention that many seem to think they do. I don't think the people tasked with inspecting reholders or mechanical errors are doing anything more than giving a book a quick once over for anything that would warrant a re-grade instead of a re-slab and even then they are likely looking for structural damage to the case more than damage to the book that doesn't line up with the grade on the label. 

[agamoto]

Well, I kinda have to question your own speculation then, Darkstar... Was the 238 and the 252 from that submission group sent to CCS for pressing or not? Was a mechanical error detected in those two books and that's why they went back in for regrade/relabel? Is the image we're seeing on the census an image of the book as seen by the graders or not, regardless of when they touched it? I'm all for slowing things down, thinking things through and being rational about all this, but the evidence that we are exposed to is rather overwhelming at this point and it's not like we're making wild assumptions based on a few sales and submissions. We're basing our speculation on HUNDREDS of them with oft repeated incidences as noted and plenty of obvious book-swapping fraud laid bare. 

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:30 PM, agamoto said:

Since I already looked at all the ASM 300's a few dozen pages back, I thought I'd go back and look at them all again, but this time look at the entire submission groups when those ASM 300's were submitted. Found quite a few suspect books that will need closer examination, some already uncovered such as the ASM 194 I confirmed swapped in one of my other posts. 

Well, popped a red bull and looked at all the CGC cert pages for the books from his ASM 300 submissions, and found some more suspect books to look closer at.

Notes. Those saying the date doesn't get changed on a reholder, I may have to disagree with ya on that, as these results seem to indicate when the GROUP submission's original grade date was and with much different grading dates for a few of the books. I also flagged the books that had images in the census before CGC announded in 8/1/2023 they'd be providing that info for everyone to enjoy.

What is completely blowing my mind here is the consistency with how often similar books are being sent in, and how consistent the 9.8 assignments are, especially with all the really rare books like the canadian price variants. Many of the 9.8's have grader notes that indicate bends and/or stress lines you'd think would normally disqualify a book from a 9.8

Again, this isn't an exhaustive list of every submission, just the one I generated based on all the ASM 300's he submitted.

Quite a remarkable track record. 

4071124001 - 6/01/2022 ASM 194 9.4
4071124002 - 6/01/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4071124003 - 6/01/2022 ASM 238 9.8
4071124004 - 6/01/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4071124005 - 6/01/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4106625001 - 8/10/2022 ASM 238 9.8
4106625002 - 10/27/2022 ASM 194 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)
4106625003 - 8/10/2022 ASM 300 9.8 
4106625004 - 8/10/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4094947001 - 7/25/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4094947002 - 7/25/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4094947003 - 7/25/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4094947004 - 7/25/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4154321001 - 1/5/2023 ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)
4154321002 - 11/09/2022 ASM 238 9.8
4154321003 - 11/09/2022 ASM 238 9.8 
4154321004 - 11/09/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4154321005 - 11/09/2022 Batman 608 9.8 Retailer Incentive
4154321006 - 11/09/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8
4154321007 - 11/09/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8 Canadian Price Variant

4109596001 - 8/12/2022 ASM 194 9.6
4109596002 - 8/12/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4109596003 - 8/12/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4109596004 - 8/12/2022 ASM 300 9.8 - Suspect book... This one sold THREE times on eBay
4109596005 - 8/12/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4137132001 - 10/11/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8
4137132002 - 10/11/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8 Canadian Price Variant
4137132003 - 10/11/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4137132004 - 12/01/2022 ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)

4129851001 - 9/22/2022 FF 48 5.5 
4129851002 - 9/22/2022 IH 181 7.5 
4129851003 - 9/22/2022 ASM 300 9.8

4121886001 - 09/12/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4121886002 - 09/12/2022 ASM 194 9.8
4121886003 - 09/12/2022 ASM 300 9.6
4121886004 - 09/12/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4121886005 - 09/12/2022 ASM 238 9.8
4121886006 - 09/12/2022 Secret Wars 8 9.8

4199541001 - 02/08/2023 ASM 194 9.8 Suspect Book, has image/custom label, prior to 8/1/2023
4199541002 - 02/08/2023 ASM 194 9.8 
4199541003 - 04/04/2023 ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)
4199541004 - 10/30/2023 ASM 300 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book (date)
4199541005 - 02/08/2023 ASM 300 9.8
4199541006 - 02/08/2023 Secret Wars 8 9.8

4148457001 - 11/01/2022 ASM 300 9.8
4148457002 - 11/01/2022 ASM 194 9.6
4148457003 - 11/01/2022 ASM 129 8.5 Suspect Book, has image/custom label, prior to 8/1/2023

4221342001 - 3/20/2023 ASM 238 9.8
4221342002 - 3/20/2023 ASM 238 9.8
4221342003 - 3/20/2023 ASM 252 9.8
4221342004 - 3/20/2023 IH 340 9.8
4221342005 - 3/20/2023 ASM 300 9.8 - Suspect Book, sold multiple times on Ebay
4221342006 - 3/20/2023 Secret Wars 8 9.8 Newsstand

4245189001 - 5/1/2023 Secret Wars 8 9.8 Newsstand
4245189002 - 5/1/2023 IH 181 9.0 - Suspect Book, has image/custom label prior to 8/1/2023
4245189003 - 5/1/2023 ASM 300 9.8
4245189004 - 5/1/2023 ASM 300 9.8
4245189005 - 5/1/2023 Captain America 261 9.8 - Quadruple Cover

4265049001 - 6/2/2023 - Secret Wars 8 9.8 Canadian Price Variant
4265049002 - 6/26/2023 - ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect Book, date, and image in census shows a Canadian PV. Label Wrong 
4265049003 - 8/2/2023 - ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect, date, Canadian Price Variant, it's imaged, Not the same book as cert#4265049002
4265049004 - 6/2/2023 - ASM 194 9.8 - Suspect, it's imaged in Census prior to 8/1/2023
4265049005 - 6/26/2023 - IH 340 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect, date/imaged prior to 8/1/2023
4265049006 - 6/2/2023 - ASM 300 9.8

4252433001 - 6/14/2023 - ASM 238 9.8 Newsstand - Suspect, imaged in census prior to 8/1/2023
4252433002 - 5/11/2023 - ASM 238 9.8
4252433003 - 5/11/2023 - ASM 252 9.8
4252433004 - 6/14/2023 - Secret Wars 8 Newsstand Canadian Price Variant - suspect Imaged in Census prior to 8/1/2023
4252433005 - 5/11/2023 - ASM 194 9.8
4252433006 - 5/11/2023 - IH 340 9.8
4252433007 - 5/11/2023 - ASM 300 9.8
 
4153803001 - 11/18/2022 - UF 4 - 9.6
4153803002 - 11/18/2022 - UF 4 - 9.4
4153803003 - 11/18/2022 - UF 4 - 9.8
4153803004 - 11/18/2022 - ASM 300 - 9.6
4153803005 - 11/18/2022 - Batman Adventures 12 9.8
4153803006 - 11/18/2022 - Detective Comics 411 8.5

4324007001 - 9/13/2023 - X-Men 266 9.8
4324007002 - 9/13/2023 - X-Men 266 9.8
4324007003 - 9/13/2023 - ASM 252 9.8 Newsstand
4324007004 - 9/13/2023 - Secret Wars 8 Newsstand 
4324007005 - 9/13/2023 - ASM 300 9.8
4324007006 - 9/13/2023 - ASM 300 9.8
4324007007 - 9/13/2023 - ASM 300 9.8

4287881001 - 7/19/2023 - ASM 194 9.8 Newsstand, Suspect, Imaged prior to 8/1/2023
4287881002 - 7/19/2023 - ASM 300 9.6 Suspect, Imaged in Census prior to 8/1/2023
4287881003 - 7/19/2023 - ASM 300 9.8 Suspect, Imaged in Census prior to 8/1/2023

 

I think CGC has the entire list of affected books submitted by this Bree, Brees, whatever their name is. Every submission has all the certs. Not sure if they will disclose this, or just suck it up and change the way reholder service is done on a more strict standard. 

[drotto]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:43 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

I think CGC has the entire list of affected books submitted by this Bree, Brees, whatever their name is. Every submission has all the certs. Not sure if they will disclose this, or just suck it up and change the way reholder service is done on a more strict standard. 

More likely reholder will be eliminated and replaced with regrade and reholder at a slight discount price from primary grading.  Say 10% to 20%

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:43 PM, BigLeagueCHEW said:

I think CGC has the entire list of affected books submitted by this Bree, Brees, whatever their name is. Every submission has all the certs. Not sure if they will disclose this, or just suck it up and change the way reholder service is done on a more strict standard. 

Oh of course, I know. The question is if they'll be 100% forthcoming about any/all of it when it comes time to explain how this fellow seems to be getting such an amazing success rate with all the books he submits, not to mention whether they'll be 100% frank about how many fraudulent books he's been able to wash through the reholder/custom label system. 

[BrashL]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:05 PM, Genuine Article Comics said:

This thread will do nothing toward sparking any tangible change because it will do nothing to negatively impact revenues which is the only thing corporations respond to.

I don’t think you’re entirely right. I agree that this isn’t going to make anyone stop sending in comics for grading. What it might do is lower the CGC premium as buyers start to lose faith in the product. Once that happens, CGC will start to lose your business.  If raws aren’t worth much less, who would bother. 
 

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/26/2023 at 7:49 PM, agamoto said:

Oh of course, I know. The question is if they'll be 100% forthcoming about any/all of it when it comes time to explain how this fellow seems to be getting such an amazing success rate with all the books he submits, not to mention whether they'll be 100% frank about how many fraudulent books he's been able to wash through the reholder/custom label system. 

IMO, rather than hurt their rep. 90% chance it will be an announcement that changes are being made to the reholder service to sweep it under the rug. Possible outcome - A grader will now look over every reholder to confirm accuracy. Which I thought was already supposed to be in play, but who knows with the plaque of issues in QA.

[MAR1979]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:09 PM, Randall Dowling said:

Reading this list, I'm reminded of these threads:

 

I wonder how many who participated in those threads actually have what they think or though they had? 

The goings on with those books coupled with the sinking Comic Book market has certainly eliminated the dopamine hit-fest those threads once were. Certainly plausible now we'll see sub-2019 FMV breaches on both those books in 9.8. 

I also wonder if 1st gen slabs 9.6 & 9.8's of those and the other now "tainted" books will jump as a result. 1st gen slab era ended in mid 2003. 3 or so years prior to any currently discovered activity by the scammer(s)

Edited December 27, 2023 by MAR1979

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/27/2023 at 3:13 AM, MAR1979 said:

I've no idea of that but was able to obtain an image of the perp

 

He would have gotten away with it too... if it wasn't for all you meddling kids.

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:11 PM, Steven Valdez said:

He would have gotten away with it too... if it wasn't for all you meddling kids.

He/she sealed their fate with those MJ’s as we know those are nearly impossible or impossible to find in 9.8 White.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/27/2023 at 3:08 AM, comicwiz said:

My biggest concern with the cover of #181 is... why does the Hulk have no neck?!

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:25 PM, DWL said:

Just want to clarify, and perhaps this is stated elsewhere and I missed it.  Who is "CS"?  You indicate receiving a reply from CS, who is that?

Comic Swapper

[comicwiz]

Can someone check for clear pics on certification number 4108422002 ASM 238 - Sold for $999 on Apr 2, 2023

Edited December 27, 2023 by comicwiz

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/27/2023 at 4:23 AM, skybolt said:

I also think this is the reason we haven't seen any restored books in blue labels yet (at least from this guy). He doesn't want to take the chance of a CGC employee or a buyer finding an obvious resto on the front and back cover. The missing inserts are easier to hide.

My former copy of Hulk #181 had a huge '10c' written on the logo in marker pen. It's out in the world somewhere. Let's see the perp try getting THAT one past the reholdering division,