ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:57 PM, Yorick said:

That last ASM238 9.4 upgraded to 9.8 could simply be a crack out and send to CCS for pressing (maybe use that label later down the line).  It is the same book by my eye, but CGC allows spine ticks on 9.8s.

If the first copy in 9.4 did not indicate that it had tattooz, then I'd add it to the fraud list.  BUT, the case shows it was a tattooz book. 

Just so you know some facts to consider, Yorick, he bought the book a 9.4 off ebay on April 2, 2023. He had that book delivered to him, then repacked and sent with his 4 other books in the same submission on the desk of a grader, not just received by CGC mind you, but at a grader's desk, 7 business days later on April 12th, 2023.

Like the subject of the thread says... Fishy. 

 

[godzilla43]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:55 PM, sledgehammer said:

Guy is a dope.

We've already seen that he, as Automatic Comics, stole info from comicwiz in his comments, deleted them,, and stated it was his discovery

Gotta get them views huh! 

[Tarn Kronos]

I have about a 150 slabs and most of them I did myself...What concerns me is not the random scammer but the lack of CGC to respond and protect their brand.   The brand is huge and if not for that we would not be here talking.   Please CGC don't go down the path of Disney and kill off the people who have faith and loved you, memories and money tied up in the industry.   

CGC don't be too worried about to be too big to fail, be worried about being too big to help all those who are wanting you to make your business better....We little guys are your core.

1) All re-slabs have to be re-graded!

2) FBI and all auction houses need to be aware of all books that could be affected...If not known then say " We checking it brother"...give us the little people hope that you are on it....

3) The only reason I have an number 3 is because they always do....I just want to say thank you to all for keeping this thread alive....Thanks CGC and you will survive....just do 1 and 2..

[skybolt]

On 12/27/2023 at 2:15 AM, agamoto said:

Just so you know some facts to consider, Yorick, he bought the book a 9.4 off ebay on April 2, 2023. He had that book delivered to him, then repacked and sent with his 4 other books in the same submission on the desk of a grader, not just received by CGC mind you, but at a grader's desk, 7 business days later on April 12th, 2023.

Like the subject of the thread says... Fishy. 

 

Agamoto, I'm really having problems trying to wrap my mind around this one. Are we sure he sent that 9.4 ASM 238 to CGC in early April to be graded? Why would he even want to grade an inferior copy again. I'm thinking he sent another direct edition ASM #238 copy that received a 9.8 grade at that time. He then did his switcheroo with the 9.4 copy and asked CGC to reholder to label the newsstand designation in July (this time the grade date changed and CGC was imaging books now). The direct edition copy graded in April was later sent in again to get the 9.8 grade to start the process again.

[Tarn Kronos]

What Disney did to Star Wars is not what Black Stone should do to CGC.   Really?

CGC....Would it be possible to go through the records and determine that if I had books submitted then I would be allowed to get a approval or something to say the book is not counterfeit ?   This idea kills the market place but would allow me to sell my slabbed books without fear(until the next time)?    The flow path of this is on you...but something like I spend more money sending them to you and you give me a blessing....or even better if I show you the fact I got them slabbed myself then you give me the blessing?    When in doubt "Slab it out".   I really don't care but the market place needs to survive...action comics 1 buyers and sellers make up a small part of the market....everyone goes to work on the mass.    BTW...got a Action comics 1 in house being graded with a mark jewlers ad....Just kidding....but part of this is a thought.   Take your time and be fluid on thoughts but stern on counterfit.   Make adjustments and duck and weave as like a Bumble bee.

 

[jas1vans]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:18 PM, WNY said:

Been tracking this thread closely over the last week… people have already given them a pat on the back, but I just think it is worth noting again @comicwiz @agamoto you two are doing an incredible job figuring out this person’s misdeeds with hard data and evidence. Really awesome job! Seems thankless I am sure, but I for one feel an immense sense of gratitude. 

Just wanted to second, third, fourth, or whatever this thought. Going to be offline for a bit and I'm going to miss seeing the incredible work you guys are doing. Hopefully I'll have the time to catch up on the next 100 or so pages that will accumulate over the next few days.

[AbsoluteCarnage]

I couldn't get this out of my chat so just posted it lol. Chat window was broke. Yeah you're right but it has been a bit more inconsistent in the last few years. I imagine it's mostly based on them training new ppl. And they probably stick the new ppl on moderns.

On 12/26/2023 at 10:44 PM, VintageComics said:

 

There are lots of people that spot raw 9.8s and there always has been. Like anything, some people are just better at it than others and high grade collectors tend to be very picky and train their eyes to spot such thing

Edited December 27, 2023 by AbsoluteCarnage
lol quote undeletable

[sledgehammer]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:06 PM, agamoto said:

Lol, I think if we were in the same room, we'd blow this thing wide open. 

I think you already have.

[skybolt]

I know CGC sent back that message regarding them conducting a investigation and using info obtained from this thread. I just wish they would resiprocate that and at least let us know if they reholdered those Hulk 181s that Comicwiz posted. This would at least let us know if this guy is using the reholdering service every time or only if he needs a new designation on the label or for CGC to scan the book.

[DoctorWyoming1]

Regie Collects literally just posted a “heads in hands” pic for his “CGC scam” video. Someone here predicted this.

 

no need to post the link.

[agamoto]

He's getting them to apply a 9.8 custom label to a 9.4 book, and he has to be taking advantage of them not regrading the book or opening the inner well or giving any of it much scrutiny at all. He's got to be submitting the 9.4 with a label that indicates it's a 9.8 and counting on them not actually bothering to check.

CGC has to be receiving a book with a 9.8 label and certification that matches a book they sent out. It seems the majority of these swaps since mid 2022 have involved custom labels. So my assumption is he's found a way to replace the standard label in a case using a simple sonic cutter/welder to maintain the integrity of the case as best as possible to avoid scrutiny. He's not submitting these books to CGC raw, so it's possible that he's resealing and then smashing the area where he broke into the case and complaining of mechanical error upon receipt once he's received his legit 9.8 book and swapped the label with the 9.4. There's no way to be sure, at least with his submissions prior to 8/1/2023, if the other books in his submissions are also custom labels, and I would actually suspect they are not.

He'd then have to ship the books back and the doctored case would then be forwarded to a department whose sole purpose is to crack out, replace label and re-encapsulate only with no regrading, just a simple label check. I don't believe for a minute that the book is being removed from its inner well or being pressed, regraded, etc. otherwise it absolutely would require a conspiracy from within to pull off given all the examples of obvious lower grade books getting passed off as 9.0+ books.

Another alternative is that he is doing it all at home with a sonic welder capable of full case seals which cost around $5K to 10K, including the cost of the aluminum molds required to perform the seal. He'd also need an exact copy of the CGC case to pull it off as well, or something good enough to pass muster at CGC. I've seen links to alibaba cases, and if they truly are a match for CGC's case, then honestly ALL bets are off and pretty much anyone with $5-10K could be doing the same thing. He could be requesting a label change, or resealing the donor book with the higher grade label at home and then smashing/cracking any edges to hide any imperfections... My question would be how the heck could he be doing that level of trickery over and over again w/o anyone appearing to catch on. 

 

[Bo1983]

Sad part is this will just go away in a week or so!

[skybolt]

The reason I want to know if every single book in question needed reholdering at CGC is to find out how good this guy was at opening and sealing the case without damage. If he only used the reholdering service to receive a new designation on the label from CGC (to sell the book for a lot more), while not involving CGC with the rest of the switcheroos, then this guy is likely an expert in opening and sealing CGC cases.

If on the other hand, every single book in question was via the reholdering service, it tells me that this guy needed some help on the other end. He may have convinced a CGC staffer that he's buying a lot of books from a person in Canada, and every time he gets the books in the mail, a small percentage are damaged. If the higher up CGC staffer believed him, he could expedite the process with the reholdering group and say don't worry about checking for broken corners, the customer is legit. The scammer could've also used this relationship to get additional designations on the label.

[AbsoluteCarnage]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:32 AM, Bo1983 said:

Sad part is this will just go away in a week or so!

nope. Too much on this one.

[AbsoluteCarnage]

I'll still be buying 9.8's and submitting them for some SS events but there's too much here for this to go away anytime soon. We need some clarification on what transpired other than what info we've gathered and what CGC plans to do to fix this situation. And then it may go away slowly but ppl should be very wary of the book they purchase as if this hasn't set off alarms in someone's head, they don't have one.

[Buzzetta]

Given the Dylan Scam it seems that the problem is not even so much a reholdering scam but a reholder for a custom label scam.   That's how Dylan got away with turning purple label books into blue custom label books with the restoration notes in the fine print.  With Dylan the issue was that the CGC system did not have a purple character label at the time so they could either be designated yellow or blue. 

Since they are watching, maybe that division needs to take a good hard look at the loopholes in it.  

[chrisco37]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:05 PM, Genuine Article Comics said:

So what does this all mean for collectors?  Blind allegiance and loyalty to the company? Angry posts and videos that amount to words only and no action? Jumping ship to the only real choice in 3rdPG? 

The reality is, nothing will come of this. Nothing at all. Collectors will complain and moan, all the while still sending CGC books for grading and CGC smiles at you and gives you the finger. Another scandal arises and it's rinse and repeat from collectors ad nauseam.

This thread will do nothing toward sparking any tangible change because it will do nothing to negatively impact revenues which is the only thing corporations respond to.

[Pcaedus]

I feel this just all comes down to poor training and oversight from the associates and all the way up to supervisors and upper management. The lack of care put into the whole process leaves the whole system easy to exploit. This has nothing to do with their Marketing and PR team which does an excellent job pushing the brand. It's looking like what goes on behind the scenes is far more sinister. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Pcaedus

[Mikey C]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:44 AM, Buzzetta said:

Given the Dylan Scam it seems that the problem is not even so much a reholdering scam but a reholder for a custom label scam.   That's how Dylan got away with turning purple label books into blue custom label books with the restoration notes in the fine print.  With Dylan the issue was that the CGC system did not have a purple character label at the time so they could either be designated yellow or blue. 

Since they are watching, maybe that division needs to take a good hard look at the loopholes in it.  

This is not 100% a custom label scam. The New Mutants 98 9.8 MJ he got put into a new case had a new, regular blue label. This was early in this thread and the 2nd book that was caught by the great members here. So not everything is about the custom label. Didn’t want that to get lost in all the discussion about this just being a custom label loophole. 

[Ares]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:23 PM, mephistopheles said:

 

I watch him Weekly. 

Interesting shows and unboxing he puts on