ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Poekaymon]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:46 PM, Buzzetta said:

Some of these posts are like opening presents on Christmas when Christmas just happens to be every day of the week. 
 

Keep entertaining while I’m “behind the scenes.”

 

That room is way neater and less cluttered than I was led to believe.

[paqart]

On 12/27/2023 at 10:52 PM, William-James88 said:

Gonna disagree on this one simply because of how widespread and varied, in terms of book value, that was over time. CGC messing up at times feels more probable than an organized comic crime ring that did this on random books sold from a multitude of stores. 

It certainly doesn't explain this 9.8 with spine ticks, for instance,  which couldn't have been scammed the same way due to it being a signature series.

Plus there's the idea that 9.8 means mint from the printing press, so it can include bindery tears and colour breaks, as people discuss in one of the many "is this a 9.8?" threads on the site.

To be clear, I am not saying the spidey 252 that sparked this is legit, it isn't.  I just do not think we are looking at the same scam happening all the time everywhere. I feel that absolves CGC too much.

I think your idea of organized crime and mine are different. I'm thinking of the kind of scam described in the book "Clean Sweep." That case worked like this: A high school kid made extra money cleaning people's houses. He started getting more clients than he could handle, so he hired some friends from school to help out. That led to more demand, and eventually, the need to buy equipment he didn't have. He went to a local low level mobbed up guy for a $5,000 loan.

The cleaning business became more and more successful. The principal wanted to pay the loan off many times, but now it was in the hands of the higher ups, and they told him to keep paying the exorbinate interest instead. The company became huge over time, doing over $1billion/yr in business. By then, millions had been paid to the mob. More than that, they laundered money through its many locations, and used the principal to manipulate the stock market. The guy who started the business had no idea how to get out. Eventually, the mob's greed did it for him. Their demands for money on the original $5,000 loan grew to the point that the business was no longer profitablle and it collapsed.

I am thinking of that example because in the early days of the scam, it was small. It got huge over time, but on the way there, it was about the same size as what we see with this CGC reholdering problem. I've read a lot of books about these kinds of things and they generally all work the same way: a weakness is observed that can be used to make money. It is exploited until it no longer makes money. This means it can stop almost as soon as it starts, or it can last for a long time, depending on the scam. It may not even have mobsters directly involved in the scam, they just take a cut. Sometimes this happens because they discover someone else pulling a scam, and they elbow their way in.

However this was done, there is nothing that tells me it cannot have ties to organized crime. It might not, but I wouldn't rule it out without knowing more.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:28 AM, Beige said:

You really DO live in a basement!

Pre-War Stucco house - this place is solid 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Buzzetta

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:28 PM, Beige said:

You really DO live in a basement!

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:53 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

Your gif isn't working.  At least make the gif work. 

[Silver Surfer]

On 12/27/2023 at 8:21 PM, VintageComics said:

Because I went out of my way to notify Comiclink about the ASM #129 conversation here, asked them to look into it and then relayed the results back here and all you could reply to my post with was snark. 

You have NO IDEA how many people are working behind the scenes that aren't posting here and your snark shows a lack of appreciation for these efforts. 

A simple 'thank you' would have been much more appropriate. 

C’mon Roy I’m sure that CGC appreciates that you are in their corner but do we really have to hear about how’s it’s not as bad as we might think, this guy didn’t sell at con’s, etc. Still no official response of any substance (unless I missed it) so it’s obviously bad with no simple solution otherwise one would have been provided by now. People are obviously frustrated and rightfully so. 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:26 PM, wombat said:

I have no doubt they are in the information gathering stage. You can make a statement to that effect. I think people would like to hear that you are aware and looking into it. It doesn't have to be a "final statement" with all the answers. 

What I hope is that this guy has a bunch of submissions there right now!  That would be where they are going to find evidence of wrongdoing!

Imagine they get a chance to go through his reholder sub for example and find a bunch of glued back together holders!  Then they start opening his Universals and find a bunch of missing MVS’s. This is what is hopefully keeping him awake right now!  

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:03 AM, Iconic1s said:

What I hope is that this guy has a bunch of submissions there right now!  That would be where they are going to find evidence of wrongdoing!

Imagine they get a chance to go through his reholder sub for example and find a bunch of glued back together holders!  Then they start opening his Universals and find a bunch of missing MVS’s. This is what is hopefully keeping him awake right now!  

I agree, that is most likely that is what they are doing if he does in fact have a submission in queue. 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Buzzetta

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:02 AM, Silver Surfer said:

C’mon Roy I’m sure that CGC appreciates that you are in their corner but do we really have to hear about how’s it’s not as bad as we might think, this guy didn’t sell at con’s, etc. Still no official response of any substance (unless I missed it) so it’s obviously bad with no simple solution otherwise one would have been provided by now. People are obviously frustrated and rightfully so. 

Peter, which one of my posts put me in anyone's corner?

I simply am trying to stick to the facts, while some people prefer to stick to the speculation...and you're one of them. 

Stick to the facts. 

[Silver Surfer]

So we are not allowed to speculate just have to tone it down so we don’t offend anyone? Give me a break. 

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:11 AM, Silver Surfer said:

So we are not allowed to speculate just have to tone it down so we don’t offend anyone? Give me a break. 

Speculation that something was amiss in the first place is how we all got here... so speculate away because that's how leads are developed.    It is those that then chase down unsubstantiated and irrational leads that find themselves in the dark corners of the internet embracing conspiracy theories. 

So far every speculation here has started with some degree of rationality. 

People should speculate away. 

[Heronext]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:06 PM, brute_nm said:

Check out this new feature on the census. Hopefully this means CGC will remove fraudulent books

eBay should allow sales of CGC-slabbed comics only with a hand-entered serial number and a direct link back to the CGC cert lookup page (ebay-embedded and nothing to do with the lister's description)

Edited December 28, 2023 by Heronext

[EastEnd1]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:13 AM, Buzzetta said:

Speculation that something was amiss in the first place is how we all got here... so speculate away because that's how leads are developed.    It is those that then chase down unsubstantiated and irrational leads that find themselves in the dark corners of the internet embracing conspiracy theories. 

So far every speculation here has started with some degree of rationality. 

People should speculate away. 

Unlike the dark corners of the internet, the speculation here has been backed up by a landslide of hard evidence.

[Buzzetta]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:27 AM, EastEnd1 said:

Unlike the dark corners of the internet, the speculation here has been backed up by a landslide of hard evidence.

I agree.

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:11 AM, Silver Surfer said:

So we are not allowed to speculate just have to tone it down so we don’t offend anyone? Give me a break. 

Nope. Some just continue to perpetuate false things. 

Speculating about possibilities is one thing. Stating false things as fact is an entirely different thing. 

Why is it that you have a problem with sticking to facts?

Do you WANT the story filled with false information?

Edited December 28, 2023 by VintageComics

[Buzzetta]

BTW... 

Do a search for PSA and then do a search for CGC and it seems that the sports cards market is thriving. 

Yes, I know that many listings are not graded but say, "CGC IT!!!" or "PSA READY!!!" but still...

 

There are a LOT of graded collectibles out there.  Remember that eBay will find it easier to kick off users (and even that is a big if) rather than implement new rules and regulations over selling graded collectibles. 

 

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:05 PM, VintageComics said:

Ah OK, so that's where the story came from.

I re-listened to that video the other night,specifically looking for that info but I stopped around the 1:20:00 mark, being too tired (it was my 2nd time listening to it just for the answer we were looking for).

So he has pics of the guy showing off books at a con. Sounds like the alleged seller was walking around, not set up at a show and that's very common. We see it all the time. There's no indication he was actually set up at the show.

Just wanna clear this up again, there was zero talk about photos of these books at cons from me or 9.9, photos of books he was selling on Grailz and screenshots of dms. 100% no confusion here, Manu (9.9) doesn't go to cons so he wouldn't be sharing photos of someone at a con.

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:33 AM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Just wanna clear this up again, there was zero talk about photos of these books at cons from me or 9.9, photos of books he was selling on Grailz and screenshots of dms. 100% no confusion here, Manu (9.9) doesn't go to cons so he wouldn't be sharing photos of someone at a con.

Thank you.

And be careful, someone may accuse you of waving CGC pom-poms for wanting to keep the story straight. 

[Legion HQ]

I'm just now at the beginning stages of reading about this scandal. Holy jeez, not what I wanted to see post-holiday fun.

Regarding CGC's noticeable silence on such a serious scandal (it's likely been mentioned in the past 160+ pages that I haven't yet read), one possible reason that CGC has not made a statement yet is that they may be working with law enforcement (e.g. FBI) on what looks to be millions of dollars in interstate fraud over the course of years, and CGC is being advised not to talk about it yet. I would also think it would be corporate malpractice if CGC was not speaking with some high-rolling legal counsel, who presumably would advise discretion until their ducks are in a row with potential liability. This all is way beyond just a PR nightmare for CGC. (Again, sorry if this has already been discussed and hashed out. Just my very initial impression of the situation with CGC.)

[Silver Surfer]

On 12/27/2023 at 10:29 PM, VintageComics said:

Nope. Some just continue to perpetuate false things. 

Speculating about possibilities is one thing. Stating false things as fact is an entirely different thing. 

Why is it that you have a problem with sticking to facts?

Do you WANT the story filled with false information?

Here is a fact. There has been enough uncovered here that the QC or slab design is a joke and should make everyone question whether they have been screwed over at some point in the last few years. But let’s not speculate, unless it’s to suggest that maybe this guy didn’t sell at cons, etc. Right.