ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[EastEnd1]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:41 AM, HotKey said:

4. Improved security features on slabs - but it would be good to show us what you did to make sure the youtube videos cant be replicated anymore.

That strikes me as the most frightening aspect of this whole thing.  If it's that easy to open the slab and reseal it, then EVERY slab (at least of the type demonstrated on in the video), has to be viewed as POTENTIALLY suspect.  That has to be thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of graded books.  

[pdags]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:07 AM, CGC Mike said:

We have also retained a leading private investigative service and outside counsel to conduct a comprehensive review of this incident and our processes

@CGC Mike Can you clarify if any Local, State, or Federal agencies are involved?  (Aka the police, FBI, etc.).

Edited December 28, 2023 by pdags

[THE_BEYONDER]

“ Based on our initial review, we believe that the incident affects a few hundred comic books.”

This comes across as a premature downplay to me. 

[skybolt]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:57 AM, EastEnd1 said:

That strikes me as the most frightening aspect of this whole thing.  If it's that easy to open the slab and reseal it, then EVERY slab (at least of the type demonstrated on in the video), has to be viewed as POTENTIALLY suspect.  That has to be thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of graded books.  

I think CGC should implement random detailed checks on CGC re-holders moving forward, and note this on their website. If the book was found to be tampered with then additional investigation will be conducted internally to check into the submitter's past history and other books submitted at that time. At least this would act as a deterrent for someone trying to pull something similar.

CGC Mike's response was great. The only question I would have is if moving forward will CGC require a book to be regraded if someone wants to add a designation on the label?

[brute_nm]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:03 AM, pdags said:

Can you clarify if any Local, State, or Federal agencies are involved?  (Aka the police, FBI, etc.).

Above all that... the NWO

Edited December 28, 2023 by brute_nm

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:46 AM, sd2416 said:

Im waiting for the meme with the guy and two girls walking of this. 

Was done last week.  But the newly desired girl has the CBCS logo so it can't be posted here.

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 2:03 AM, Silver Surfer said:

But let’s not speculate, unless it’s to suggest that maybe this guy didn’t sell at cons, etc. Right.

No, you can speculate about things that are possibilities. but I countered your possibilities with facts we know so far because it's already been discussed it several times. 

You in turn, turned the conversation on me. Why?

The problem with a thread this large is that some are perpetuating stories that have no basis in fact and it muddies the trail, making it harder to see clearly overall.

In this particular instance, people have continually MISQUOTED and mischaracterized the statements of the two very people who started this entire investigation in the 1st YouTube , video, on the 1st page of this thread with stuff that isn't true. That misquoting and mischaracterization doesn't help anyone.

As you can see, WestcoastDAVEngers, one of the people who made the 1st video, corrected everyone AGAIN last night. 

I get it. People are upset this happened. I'm upset. Everyone is upset. 

Even MORE reason for everyone need to stick to perpetuating facts once they've been established because perpetuating false information just makes the breadcrumb trail harder to follow for everyone.  

[Stefan_W]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:04 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

“ Based on our initial review, we believe that the incident affects a few hundred comic books.”

This comes across as a premature downplay to me. 

They have a complete list of every book the individual has directly submitted, and can use the earliest known example of a forgery as a starting point and then count from there. They can also check to see if other known examples of forged books were submitted under different names. I am pretty sure that a big part of the time spent the past few days has involved pouring through all of their records and matching them up with tampered slabs. 

If your statement is meant to imply that more books may surface that broaden things outward I would agree with you. If you are saying it is an intentional "downplay" I would not agree at all. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Stefan_W

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:11 AM, Stefan_W said:

They have a complete list of every book the individual has directly submitted, and can use the earliest known example of a forgery as a starting point and then count from there. They can also check to see if other known examples of forged books were submitted under different names. I am pretty sure that a big part of the time spent the past few days has involved pouring through all of their recording and matching them up with tampered slabs. 

If your statement is meant to imply that more book may surface that broaden things outward I would agree with you. If you are saying it is an intentional "downplay" I would not agree at all. 

I see it as an intentional downplay 

[brute_nm]

@CGC Mike, will the fraudulent books be labeled as such on the census? Or removed entirely?

[MatterEaterLad]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:31 PM, Buzzetta said:

BTW... 

Do a search for PSA and then do a search for CGC and it seems that the sports cards market is thriving. 

Yes, I know that many listings are not graded but say, "CGC IT!!!" or "PSA READY!!!" but still...

 

There are a LOT of graded collectibles out there.  Remember that eBay will find it easier to kick off users (and even that is a big if) rather than implement new rules and regulations over selling graded collectibles. 

 

I heard this second hand (from a good source), but apparently Halperin said that this year is the first year Heritage made more money selling cards than comics. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:35 AM, namisgr said:

On 12/28/2023 at 3:27 AM, RonS2112 said:

You are correct.  But I think some here should get used to the idea that it is possible (in fact likely) that the scammer’s personal info will not be shared with us.

Some of the perp's information will have to be shared for the searching to continue for slabs with bogus grades and for consumers to be able to evaluate the slabs in their collections and be made aware of suspect slabbed books going forward.  Names/aliases and city locations used by the scammer to sell books at various venues must be spread clear and wide, at a minimum.  And lists of certification numbers from all submissions to CGC by the perp must be compiled and released.

While I don't disagree, for now, public social media handles like eBay and IG are enough for people to know if they've dealt with this person. 

Personal privacy laws these days in the overly litigious society we live in make the consequences of publicly sharing information a potentially messy thing, and can even be used by alleged defendants to counter-sue. 

The right people know ALL the details and a little trust is going to be necessary until an official statement is made. 

[Ares]

What are the odds that from now on any book that sent for a reholder gets regraded

[wombat]

The fear here is that they are only going to include books submitted by this one person and not broaden the investigation. Easy to downplay in this way. 

[drotto]

The announcement is about what I expected, and I am glad that CGC has finally acknowledged the problem, has started to take action, and most importantly is going to compensate those affected. 

 

At least to me a few things seem clear now.

1. The delay was needed to conduct the initial investigation, get private investigators involved, and get council. 

2. CGC has a strong suspicion who the individual or individuals are.

3.CGC is tacitly acknowledging they have some liability or exposure here. They are making people whole (which is the moral and correct move), and are already changing processes and continuing the internal review. This means they have found deficiencies in QC or the case itself have left them with some exposure.

4. More changes are coming, either in the services themselves, more anti-tampering measures, or possible more extensive changes in the submission process or case itself.

5. It is enough money and a serious enough matter that law enforcement is involved.

[Kripsys99]

Appreciate that CGC finally made a statement, but everything said in the statement could have been said a week ago (in fact, I drafted an eerily similar statement a week ago, below) - it's boilerplate public relations 101:

Also, the bottom line remains that we - and all the world - now know how truly easy CGC slabs are to open and reseal seamlessly. CGC needs to come up with some kind of solution (God knows what) for the millions of easily hackable slabs already in circulation. This guy won't be the last.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Kripsys99

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:16 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

I heard this second hand (from a good source), but apparently Halperin said that this year is the first year Heritage made more money selling cards than comics. 

Purely observational, but as I cruise Ebay almost daily - the push for card auctions, card collecting, vault stuff, etc - it seems that there is a big upswing on cards way more than comics. Even in the sports, trading, collectible card categories are far above 'comics' on Ebay's collectibles landing page. I always felt hierarchal links have always been a simple way to determine topic popularity.

[EastEnd1]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:08 AM, skybolt said:

I think CGC should implement random detailed checks on CGC re-holders moving forward, and note this on their website. If the book was found to be tampered with then additional investigation will be conducted internally to check into the submitter's past history and other books submitted at that time. At least this would act as a deterrent for someone trying to pull something similar.

CGC Mike's response was great. The only question I would have is if moving forward will CGC require a book to be regraded if someone wants to add a designation on the label?

This would seem to be a must to deal with the type of scam being discussed here, but the Immaculate comics video shows that the case can be opened and resealed with little to no noticeable difference in the case.  You don't need to go through any resubmission back to CGC... simply open the case and replace the high grade book with a lower grade book.  Reseal and post on Ebay.  I guess the high def scans CGC is now including in their certification registry will help reduce this, but most holders don't have scans... and many potential buyers, at least for now, probably wouldn't even know to check the registry scans. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by EastEnd1

[wiparker824]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:31 AM, Kripsys99 said:

This guy won't be the last.

We have no reason to believe this guy was the first either. The first to get caught yes, but the first? Or the only one actively doing this? No way of knowing that. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:13 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I see it as an intentional downplay 

 

On 12/28/2023 at 8:23 AM, wombat said:

The fear here is that they are only going to include books submitted by this one person and not broaden the investigation. Easy to downplay in this way. 

I dunno. I don't see it as a downplay, more like a cautionary stance. No one wants to scream "the sky is falling!" when it's their own reputation on the line. They're probably going forward cautiously and not overstating the problem. I don't see that as underhanded at all - I'm glad it's been addressed.