ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:45 PM, Dbear67 said:

Amazing Spider-Man #252 Marvel Comics May 1984 CGC 9.8 Near Mint + White Pages! | eBay, this one looked fishy to me. It does not match the picture on CGC. 

Agreed, that book in the census and the one on the ebay ad really do look noticeably different. A look at the entire submission group of 9 books shows a secret wars 8 9.8 that's iffy too and a gift grade 9.6 ASM 300, but it doesn't follow the pattern of our fella. He usually submits groups of 5 books, every couple of weeks since mid 2022. The ad on ebay doesn't jive with our fella's ad copy at all, and different camera/backgrounds/reflections.  Could be the first instance of ANOTHER seller pulling the same stunt. 

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:57 PM, EastEnd1 said:

I think everyone who bought from this scammer and got defrauded should file a case with the FBI.  If enough people do... if the claim repeats itself many times, involving victims all across the country... they'll take it up, regardless of what CGC does.  (And btw, I do believe CGC will report it to the appropriate authorities, if they haven't already...isn't that what "held accountable to the fullest extent of the law" means? ).  Frankly, I think the FBI would enjoy all the free publicity they would get from taking down a scam involving some of the nations most popular film characters.

What law? Criminal? They don't have any say in that. Civil? Makes sense given the damage this one dude has done to their reputation. Maritime? LOTS of salty tears being shed over all this!

[BrashL]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:39 PM, Tnexus said:

It's very likely a civil case over a criminal one. CGC will go after this person for monetary damages for damaging their reputation. If the individual resubmitted these comics for a reholders, it's 100% on them to confirm it's still the same grade. The only reason CGC is refunding people is because they failed their guarantee and got caught. Criminal charges would mean they'd have to prove they swapped the comics which is doubtful CGC can. Authorities could maybe go after them if they replaced the comic and didn't resubmit for a reholder, but I still think it's unlikely.

In the end CGC will make money off this by selling a new super tamper proof case that will only cost you $50 a piece.

As a former lawyer I can assure you there is a 0.0% chance of a civil suit. Civil suit means discovery and there is no planet where CGC lets that happen. 

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 7:10 PM, agamoto said:

Agreed, that book in the census and the one on the ebay ad really do look noticeably different. A look at the entire submission group of 9 books shows a secret wars 8 9.8 that's iffy too and a gift grade 9.6 ASM 300, but it doesn't follow the pattern of our fella. He usually submits groups of 5 books, every couple of weeks since mid 2022. The ad on ebay doesn't jive with our fella's ad copy at all, and different camera/backgrounds/reflections.  Could be the first instance of ANOTHER seller pulling the same stunt. 

Actually, I take it back, it does look like the same book, just different lighting catching the top edge and washing out the white around the price. Note the nick in the spine to the immediate left of the girl's wrist. With the top edge wear and that abraded corner, how the eff did this score so high? 

Edited December 29, 2023 by agamoto

[skybolt]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:28 PM, trademarkcomics said:

Me too. Mine was received 12/1 and not moving for a couple of weeks, but when they did finally start moving, they moved pretty quickly. 

Interestingly enough, the grades I got on this batch were spot on with what I was expecting.

[pdags]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:19 PM, agamoto said:

Actually, I take it back, it does look like the same book, just different lighting catching the top edge and washing out the white around the price.

That was my first thought, but I'm not the world's best grader.  ;-)

[comeaux]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:39 PM, Tnexus said:

It's very likely a civil case over a criminal one. CGC will go after this person for monetary damages for damaging their reputation. If the individual resubmitted these comics for a reholders, it's 100% on them to confirm it's still the same grade. The only reason CGC is refunding people is because they failed their guarantee and got caught. Criminal charges would mean they'd have to prove they swapped the comics which is doubtful CGC can. Authorities could maybe go after them if they replaced the comic and didn't resubmit for a reholder, but I still think it's unlikely.

In the end CGC will make money off this by selling a new super tamper proof case that will only cost you $50 a piece.

CGC used some strong language like “to the fullest extent of law” but I highly doubt CGC wants their incomprehensible incompetence exposed through discovery during legal proceedings.If so I’ll definitely update my Pacer account to witness the dismantling of their 30 year clown show. 

 

 

 

[EastEnd1]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:13 PM, agamoto said:

What law? Criminal? They don't have any say in that. Civil? Makes sense given the damage this one dude has done to their reputation. Maritime? LOTS of salty tears being shed over all this!

If we're going to dissuade copycat scammers, this fellow needs to be prosecuted criminally and go to jail (in addition to being sued civilly).  Mail fraud strikes me as a good start.  The digital trail of evidence must be ridiculously strong... and the FBI has capabilities that will turn all those shadowy reflections of the scammer in his listing photos into sunny clear pictures.  Mr Scammer will plea bargain a guilty plea.  

[comicginger1789]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:00 PM, DoctorWyoming1 said:

Agreed. Taking time for a good response is the exact response I want from a professional group. The only thing that might have made this better was for a brief comment to the effect of "We are aware of this situation and are preparing a response." earlier on in this situation.

Well I think some pants sheeting and mad scrambling was occurring

[agamoto]

On 12/28/2023 at 7:27 PM, EastEnd1 said:

If we're going to dissuade copycat scammers, this fellow needs to be prosecuted criminally and go to jail (in addition to being sued civilly).  Mail fraud strikes me as a good start.  The digital trail of evidence must be ridiculously strong... and the FBI has capabilities that will turn all those shadowy reflections of the scammer in his listing photos into sunny clear pictures.  Mr Scammer will plea bargain a guilty plea.  

Enhance!

[Mephisto]

Just want to pass this along to everyone. Potter is willing to take your CGC comics off your hands after this latest scandal. 

 

[William-James88]

Ah , I'm now wondering how CGC will deal with people claiming issues with their books. I have 2 slabs to send back to them due to their mistakes. One that omits a book of being a Canadian edition (happens to be a 9.8) and the other that has a sticker label across the top claiming its a store exclusive even though it's Detective Comics 400. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Lol 

Well I know when I'm the bumpkin in the room. I will have to be patient myself to not open my mouth and remove all doubt.

I will say for nearly 200 pages, I see this as a thread around for a long time, and it is but a mere tip of the iceberg to how long and extensive and probably desperately needed it is at this point. After such a long time to be gotten away with, hopefully now on a road to resolve.

Edited December 29, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[MAR1979]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:45 PM, Dbear67 said:

Amazing Spider-Man #252 Marvel Comics May 1984 CGC 9.8 Near Mint + White Pages! | eBay, this one looked fishy to me. It does not match the picture on CGC. 

Definitely not the one pictured in CGC's DB! However the one in the DB does not look like 9.8 either , the upper right corner should lower it to 9.4 or very weak 9.6. 
https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4318979004/

Edited December 29, 2023 by MAR1979

[paqart]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:39 PM, Tnexus said:

It's very likely a civil case over a criminal one. CGC will go after this person for monetary damages for damaging their reputation. If the individual resubmitted these comics for a reholders, it's 100% on them to confirm it's still the same grade. The only reason CGC is refunding people is because they failed their guarantee and got caught. Criminal charges would mean they'd have to prove they swapped the comics which is doubtful CGC can. Authorities could maybe go after them if they replaced the comic and didn't resubmit for a reholder, but I still think it's unlikely.

In the end CGC will make money off this by selling a new super tamper proof case that will only cost you $50 a piece.

CGC may have a civil case, but this is a criminal case as far as the fraud is concerned.

[Cat]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:42 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Lol 

Well I know when I'm the bumpkin in the room. I will have to be patient myself to not open my mouth and remove all doubt.

I will say for nearly 200 pages, I see this as a thread around for a long time, and it is but a mere tip of the iceberg to how long and extensive and probably desperately needed it is at this point. After such a long time to be gotten away with, hopefully now on a road to resolve.

Addy, your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's. You've said nothing that's embarrassed yourself. 

[paqart]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:00 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

This is where I'm with that and the full extent of the law tagline, do they have recourse for prosecution?

As @Iconic1s said astutely, they let it out the door! The only scam or fraud in slight are the grading fees, which don't amount to as much than what cgc will pay in the reimbursement fraud.

They gave it the authentication in the reholder, so I'm thinking lawsuit, which wouldn't involve the FBI but I don't think prosecution  from cgc specifically.

Am I asserting that right? Cause this is where my last couple of pages of rambling were coming from  @MatterEaterLad @pdags slight edit for clarification 

I don't think you are right at all. there are multiple crimes here, interstate commerce, use of the mails, wire fraud, theft by deception, etc, multiplied by how many times it was done. This is a huge criminal case, not a small one. The scammer defrauded customers, but also created financial liability for CGC. CGC has already announced they will make customers whole, I assume by refunding their buy price for the comics. That would likely mean the comic is bought by CGC, so they will have a way to recover some of that money by reholdering and grading them. That isn't a guarantee however, and still represents a loss to CGC.

As I look at this, the scammer is 100% criminally liable for the scam. However, CGC *might* be looked at as partly responsible because their service is to certify and guarantee the authenticity of their holder's contents. However, they were defrauded also, so they might not be considered criminally liable, though they do bear civil liability because the guarantee they are paid for was no good in these cases. Therefore, it wasn't really a guarantee and one could argue the grading fees were elicited due to fraudulent representations. I don't think that is a good argument because the grading fees involved came from the scammer himself. The argument is that by allowing the scam through negligence on their part, the overall value of CGC's guarantee is reduced, thus affecting all customers.

I agree that might happen, but I don't see it as CGC's fault because they had no mens rea. Until notified of this breach, they had no reason to believe it was even possible. Bottom line, I think CGC is doing the right thing, the scammer goes to jail, and buyers of counterfeits will get their money back if they choose to take it. The opportunity loss will be borne by the buyers, for instance the person who posted about his 8.0/9.0 ASM 129. He paid less for the fake 9.0 than it is worth as the 8.0 it is. In his case, I wouldn't give it to CGC for the 9.0 buy price, but would keep it as an 8.0 or sell it. It's unfortunate he can't get the 9.0 price, but I don't see a reasonable argument that CGC would have to pay that, particularly since it would be a flexible estimate at best.

[paqart]

On 12/28/2023 at 10:13 PM, agamoto said:

What law? Criminal? They don't have any say in that. Civil? Makes sense given the damage this one dude has done to their reputation. Maritime? LOTS of salty tears being shed over all this!

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2320

[JC25427N]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:19 PM, paqart said:

I don't think you are right at all. there are multiple crimes here, interstate commerce, use of the mails, wire fraud, theft by deception, etc, multiplied by how many times it was done. This is a huge criminal case, not a small one. The scammer defrauded customers, but also created financial liability for CGC. CGC has already announced they will make customers whole, I assume by refunding their buy price for the comics. That would likely mean the comic is bought by CGC, so they will have a way to recover some of that money by reholdering and grading them. That isn't a guarantee however, and still represents a loss to CGC.

As I look at this, the scammer is 100% criminally liable for the scam. However, CGC *might* be looked at as partly responsible because their service is to certify and guarantee the authenticity of their holder's contents. However, they were defrauded also, so they might not be considered criminally liable, though they do bear civil liability because the guarantee they are paid for was no good in these cases. Therefore, it wasn't really a guarantee and one could argue the grading fees were elicited due to fraudulent representations. I don't think that is a good argument because the grading fees involved came from the scammer himself. The argument is that by allowing the scam through negligence on their part, the overall value of CGC's guarantee is reduced, thus affecting all customers.

I agree that might happen, but I don't see it as CGC's fault because they had no mens rea. Until notified of this breach, they had no reason to believe it was even possible. Bottom line, I think CGC is doing the right thing, the scammer goes to jail, and buyers of counterfeits will get their money back if they choose to take it. The opportunity loss will be borne by the buyers, for instance the person who posted about his 8.0/9.0 ASM 129. He paid less for the fake 9.0 than it is worth as the 8.0 it is. In his case, I wouldn't give it to CGC for the 9.0 buy price, but would keep it as an 8.0 or sell it. It's unfortunate he can't get the 9.0 price, but I don't see a reasonable argument that CGC would have to pay that, particularly since it would be a flexible estimate at best.

Did you rent those pom-poms or do you own them 

Spoiler

filthy apologists with their nuanced and fair thoughts 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by JC25427N

[paqart]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:31 PM, JC25427N said:

Did you rent those pom-poms or do you own them 

  Hide contents

filthy apologists with their nuanced and fair thoughts 

 

I'm just calling it as I see it. Unless CGC knowingly participated, and I see no indication of that, they are victims also. This is true even if one or more employees did this on their own. It isn't good, but it doesn't create criminal culpability. It does create a civil responsibility to make customers whole, which they've already agreed to do.

This isn't a cheap example of lip service. If they follow through on what @CGC Mike posted, they will have done as much as they could. Imagine the so far unknown cost to CGC on this. Someone buys an IH 181 with a missing page for $10k. CGC buys it from him for $10k. The comic is worth maybe $1k. That's a dead loss of $9k for CGC, and then it gets multiplied by the number of comics involved, minus the few sellers who decide to keep the comics. They might be able to recover from the scammer, but it will cost hefty legal fees to get there. It might not be worth it.

In the end, the victim that loses the most in this scenario is CGC, not any given collector.

This is not an empty gesture at all.