ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[William-James88]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:15 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I don't know that cgc was defrauded if they ok'd the reholder, as far "multiple crimes you mentioned" they all happened after CGC okd the slab. They were used to defraud on ebay and buyers, but not with CGC specifically anymore. In court CGC wouldn't be able to testify to any of that is what I mean.I don't disagree with what you said.... but it isn't what I said.... 

So how can CGC bring criminal prosecution for any of it? That was what I was saying, maybe a lawsuit, but other than the grading fee's cgc is out, they weren't defrauded in too many other ways...

Compared to EBAY who will pass, and the customers, that might do class action once the list of slabs cgc provides is listed, and then there is CGC who is out grading fees. I could see there is a lot of "attempt to fraud" but was looking for clarification is all  

On 12/29/2023 at 10:24 AM, BrashL said:

I mentioned this about a civil suit but same goes for criminal, CGC does not want to engage in discovery around their process. If I was the scammer I would just say I sent the right books in intact and CGC somehow screwed up and swapped them. Hell, there’s zero evidence that isn’t the case.  

On 12/29/2023 at 11:09 AM, agamoto said:

The perp committed what's known as fraudulent misrepresentation by sending in swapped books made to appear as legit. He essentially made CGC an unwilling accomplice in his crime by fraudulently misrepresenting the swapped books to them for reholdering.  It's a federal criminal offense punishable by max $10K and/or 5 years in jail... Per offense.

They still would have to prove he knew they were swapped books. And yes, if he knew then they do become unwilling accomplices which is why I don't think CGC wants to get the law involved in this. And if they can't prove exactly what the perp did then only they remain a guilty party as they are the ones certifying fraudulent books. The fact that they are the experts in this scenario would make for a real bad look in court. CGC is guilty of letting this happen. 

And honestly, I personally hold CGC 100% guilty for this since they are the ones that ultimately created the fraudulent slabs which were then sold. None of us can prove for certain exactly what happened before CGC got the submission but it can be proven that they reslabbed a book, certifying its grade, and that same book being sent back on the market where it can ultimately be purchased by an unknowing customer who trusts them. They have guard rails in place (ie regrading if needed, as their site says) and chose not to use them.

On 12/29/2023 at 10:44 AM, Vince G said:

Excuse my ignorance here.  I haven't submitted anything to CGC in the past five years so I'm sure things have changed, but didn't they do a check and possibly regrade a book when it came in for reholdering?  I distinctly recall having conversations with other collectors on the topic of reholdering and some were always hesitant about sending certain books in for reholdering fearing they'd risk receiving lower grades.

Have CGC practices changed?  Or is it true that a reholder never initiated a check on the book in the case?

Thanks, guys.

They havent changed their practices. They have always stated that a reholder request CAN lead to a regrade if they deem it necessary. And they do state that they do a check. It just seems that even though they say that, they simply don't do it.

On 12/29/2023 at 2:17 PM, wiparker824 said:

Reholder and ME are not the same thing… and in this context, and particularly what CGC decides going forward I think it’s unwise to lump them together.

Thank you. I don't know why we started talking about ME all of a sudden. Also there's no dates on ME. If a slab is incorrect, like the one below which states the cover is by Jim Lee when it isn't, CGC has to fix it. 

On 12/29/2023 at 3:21 PM, Matt1982 said:

Not if you add a custom label. A re-holder that adds a custom label (which the ASM252 did) gets a new cert number. That’s what’s so weird here - it kept the same cert number.

A re holder that adds a custom label does not get a new cert number (from any of my experience).

Edited December 29, 2023 by William-James88

[Mdesimone]

Hey so cgc  fraud dept contacted me wants me to provide a screenshot of the eBay sale purchase, only problem is that it won’t go back to 2019. Also I searched my PayPal history which shows that I paid an eBay seller  that month in December 2019 and it’s a FEMALE

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mdesimone

[comicwiz]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:32 PM, Timmay said:

And you can add elysium142 as another one of the ebay account associated with this mess.

I have four currently, yours would make it five. Can someone please compile a list of what the current names are. Thanks!

[ShaggyB]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:57 PM, Mdesimone said:

Hey so eBay fraud dept contacted me wants me to provide a screenshot of the eBay sale purchase, only problem is that it won’t go back to 2019. Also I searched my PayPal history which shows that I paid an eBay seller  that month in December 2019 and it’s a FEMALE

Yeah after 90 days its on them to provide as you get nothing

[brute_nm]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:11 PM, Mikey C said:

I might be missing something but couldn’t this just be a CPR? A 9.2 to a 9.6 def isn’t unheard of. 

Agreed, while it certainly fits the pattern,  I don't want to add it to the confirmed fraudulent books list until we're confident that this wasn't a basic CPR. @Timmay, do you recall pressable defects? 

That being said, I will definitely add the new eBay username to the summary. Thanks for the info 

[MGsimba77]

The only way a new cert # is given is when there's a re-grade. This should be easily verified by anyone at CGC. 

[ShaggyB]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:59 PM, MGsimba77 said:

The only way a new cert # is given is when there's a re-grade. This should be easily verified by anyone at CGC. 

Bingo. If a grader touches it, it gets a new cert. If it gets a light level look where they go "yep, that case isnt tamperred with, we stand by our grade" it gets the new label and the same cert.

[Mdesimone]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:57 PM, comicwiz said:

I have four currently, yours would make it five. Can someone please compile a list of what the current names are. Thanks!

I now have a name that I paid for the asm 129  and the name used on the shipping label , when googled the name comes back to all the states, it also seems like he’s using this female name and account to hide, this person is using family to do his work, and it seems a few women with the same last name all live in Kew gardens

Edited December 29, 2023 by Mdesimone

[wiparker824]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:56 PM, ShaggyB said:

Not exactly, Matt said this

"Not if you add a custom label. A re-holder that adds a custom label (which the ASM252 did) gets a new cert number. That’s what’s so weird here - it kept the same cert number."

So hes thinking its not normal to get the same cert on a reholder with custom label, but it is possible and happens all the time. Its always a new number when a grader reviews it again... but if it doesnt get a grader, it keeps the same number.

This is correct. I’ve submitted a number of reholders over the years and have never seen a new number come back, even when upgrading to a custom label. For those of you claiming otherwise if you don’t mind dropping the cert number I’d like to see an example, because usually a reholder not only retains its cert # it also retains its grade date. If you’re getting a new cert number without a regrade are you seeing a new grade date? 

[EastEnd1]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:57 PM, Mdesimone said:

Hey so eBay fraud dept contacted me wants me to provide a screenshot of the eBay sale purchase, only problem is that it won’t go back to 2019. Also I searched my PayPal history which shows that I paid an eBay seller  that month in December 2019 and it’s a FEMALE

Maybe check your emails from eBay during that period.  They're constantly sending me confirms for every little thing.

Nice to see deep-pocketed eBay seems to be involved.

[Lightning55]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:57 PM, ShaggyB said:

Yeah after 90 days its on them to provide as you get nothing

Someone may be able to resurrect it on Worthpoint or Terapeak, if you provide the date, exact title, and eBay item number.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:56 PM, ShaggyB said:

Not exactly, Matt said this

"Not if you add a custom label. A re-holder that adds a custom label (which the ASM252 did) gets a new cert number. That’s what’s so weird here - it kept the same cert number."

So hes thinking its not normal to get the same cert on a reholder with custom label, but it is possible and happens all the time. Its always a new number when a grader reviews it again... but if it doesnt get a grader, it keeps the same number.

So the asm 252 that he thinks will always get the new cert brcause of custom label would be different from the book we are discussing here, as it has gone through a non standard process. Lol This thread is about the 252 that went through the normal process with the hole in it.

We’re all talking about the same book

 

@Matt1982

[Mdesimone]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:04 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Maybe check your emails from eBay during that period.  They're constantly sending me confirms for every little thing.

Nice to see deep-pocketed eBay seems to be involved.

It was cgc fraud dept not ebay

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:08 PM, Mdesimone said:

It was cgc fraud dept not ebay

You said EBay in your initial post. 

[wiparker824]

On 12/29/2023 at 2:04 PM, Lightning55 said:

Someone may be able to resurrect it on Worthpoint or Terapeak, if you provide the date, exact title, and eBay item number.

I have Terapeak but it still is limited to 3 years I believe. 

[Mdesimone]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:10 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

You said EBay in your initial post. 

Yes I screwed up I apologize 

[Lightning55]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:08 PM, Mdesimone said:

It was cgc fraud dept not ebay

Same suggestion. Get the info to someone who can look it up on WP or Terapeak. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:02 PM, Mdesimone said:

I now have a name that I paid for the asm 129  and the name used on the shipping label , when googled the name comes back to all the states, it also seems like he’s using this female name and account to hide, this person is using family to do his work, and it seems a few women with the same last name all live in Kew gardens

First name happen to be Brees?

Edited December 29, 2023 by THE_BEYONDER

[Lightning55]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:10 PM, wiparker824 said:

I have Terapeak but it still is limited to 3 years I believe. 

My bad. Never mind on that one.

People are finding images and sales data from way back somewhere. We need a super sleuth. 

[EastEnd1]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:08 PM, Mdesimone said:

It was cgc fraud dept not ebay

Like I said, if you still have access to emails from that period (December 2019) you probably have a few from eBay related to this transaction (when you bid, when you won, when you paid, etc)... so long as you didn't delete them.