ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:18 PM, comeaux said:

Perhaps it has been mentioned already but scammer could also be using ME to swap high grade books with qualified & restored books 

There are six known green label Hulk 181s that are now in blue labels.

Proof pictures of Hulk 181's.  All these green label "donor books" became blue labels:

• 0220043014 (Q) to 4275679008 (U)
• 4283015003 (Q) to 4265040003 (U)
• 4155507003 (Q) to 4120217003 (U)
• 4206646001 (Q) to 4209759001 (U)
• 4089133002 (Q) to 4146028001 (U)
• 4115260001 (Q) to 4115170002 (U)

Edited December 29, 2023 by THE_BEYONDER

[MGsimba77]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:38 PM, EastEnd1 said:

Not sure how much of this thread you've been able to get through, but one of the things that's emerged is that the "tamper-proof CGC holders" turn out to be pretty easy to open and reseal, with a substituted book inside.  It potentially implicates every CGC slab.

Yes I've gathered that thanks. There's no such thing as a tamper proof slab. Not every slab is impacted by this. My point stands.

[Mikey C]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:42 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’d be surprised if the micro-trimming ever stopped, and even more surprised if CGC would currently be catching it.

PSA can’t catch it and they’re also supposed to be leading experts in the collectibles space. One look at the Altered Card Database at Tiffany Cards was enough for me to sell all my card slabs. Meanwhile people still pay top dollar for their “expert” opinions on a paper product. What a joke this all is. 

[MGsimba77]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:39 PM, LordRahl said:

On 12/29/2023 at 4:25 PM, MGsimba77 said:

Yes the guy that was selling trimmed books in blue labels many many years ago. What did cgc eventually do about that besides banning?

I know CGC bought back a bunch of the books. There was a list published of the suspected affected books. But after a year or so, people moved on and stopped talking about it. I'm sure someone knows more than that but good luck finding that someone and getting them to talk.

Rinse and repeat. 

[Mikey C]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:25 PM, MGsimba77 said:

Yes I've gathered that thanks. There's no such thing as a tamper proof slab. Not every slab is impacted by this. My point stands.

But the punch bowl is tainted and we’ll never actually know how many people have, are currently or will have tried similar scams with CGC’s $5 plastic case. 

[pdags]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:30 PM, Mikey C said:

There's no such thing as a tamper proof slab.

Sure, but it shouldn't be trivial either.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:02 PM, Comics said:

My thought re that - I feel that eBay kicked him off for some reason (that's why the Zaglor ID doesn't lead to an inactive seller but to nothing) and they 'let' him back on with a new ID or maybe a few. So I think a lot of this is going to fall on them. I saw that @NewWorldOrder had one of the scammers previous IDs on his block list (corner142) so maybe they can remember why???

No idea.  Sorry, but obviously they did something for me to ban them at that time, but I just checked I do not have them banned, assuming account was deleted and they like you said just re-signed up.  Now I do have them blocked again.

[wombat]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:25 PM, MGsimba77 said:

Yes I've gathered that thanks. There's no such thing as a tamper proof slab. Not every slab is impacted by this. My point stands.

I think people expected at least it would take more than a hair dryer and some glue to sneak past CGC. 

[EastEnd1]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:34 PM, wombat said:

I think people expected at least it would take more than a hair dryer and some glue to sneak past CGC. 

And that's getting it past CGC.  Imagine hair dryer, replace, glue, and simply list on Ebay. 

[LordRahl]

So I get that there are literally millions of slabs out there that don't have this but for anything from the last few months and going forward, there are pictures of the book for all to see, correct? So really this has inadvertently already been corrected by the imaging that CGC instituted a few months ago, correct? Or am I missing something? 

[NewWorldOrder]

All I know is corner142 has got nothing on Jason Ewert (circa 2006-2009-ish). 

IMO to this day that was the biggest scam to ever come out in my CGC lifetime (post 2000 when CGC came into business).

While this is certainly a scam/crime to take very seriously by CGC, this is a warmup to Mr Ewert.

So many rookie Youtubers and social media back seat graders have no idea how insane that was, which impacted much more expensive higher end vintage books.

Hearing comments such as, "The is worst thing that has ever happened to our hobby."     Jason says, "hold my micro trimmer."

Edited December 29, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[brute_nm]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:39 PM, LordRahl said:

So I get that there are literally millions of slabs out there that don't have this but for anything from the last few months and going forward, there are pictures of the book for all to see, correct? So really this has inadvertently already been corrected by the imaging that CGC instituted a few months ago, correct? Or am I missing something? 

There are plenty of fraudulent books that have pictures. Ironically, CGC's pictures make the fraudulent books seem even more legit. 

[pdags]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:39 PM, LordRahl said:

Or am I missing something? 

It's kind of a solution, but it's dependent on high quality pics.  Sometimes pictures, specially on eBay, aren't high enough grade to compare.  Also, even with good pics it can still be very difficult to be 100% certain.  There was a discussion this morning about a book, some people thought it was the same others didn't.

But let's be honest, we shouldn't have cross check pictures for every purchase we're considering.   Just make cases that are tamper proof.

[wombat]

If the expectation is that every person who buys a CGC slab has to start comparing pictures that seems like not a great solution. And of course ignoring all the books pre pictures. 

[William-James88]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:43 PM, LordRahl said:

True but this seems to be an exploit of a loophole in the reholder process. 

Doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Dylan was using a loophole for his blue labelled restored comics but this individual is simply asking for a reholder and CGC takes their money and complies without caring that a 9.8 looks like .

There is no loophole here unless you consider corporate greed and ineptitude to be a loophole. 

I think this is why their statement ticks me off, they are saying it's all the fault of a bad actor and yet they are the ones who looked at that ASM 9.8 and went, "that checks out". 

 

 

[bc]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:45 PM, pdags said:

Just make cases that are tamper proof.

Again, the best we can hope for is "tamper resistant" or "tamper evident".

-bc

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:39 PM, LordRahl said:

So I get that there are literally millions of slabs out there that don't have this but for anything from the last few months and going forward, there are pictures of the book for all to see, correct? So really this has inadvertently already been corrected by the imaging that CGC instituted a few months ago, correct? Or am I missing something? 

With this scam, the current pictures represent the book you’ll be receiving.  Without further research, they don’t help you avoid being scammed.  

[wombat]

Imagine being at a con trying to buy a slab and trying to look up and compare pictures on your phone. 

[NewWorldOrder]

#1 red flag for me was corner142 was from Forest Hills, NY. 

If you stereotype that area of NYC in terms of eBay selling that leads to fraud you are better off in the long-run.

Especially when it comes to "CGC worthy" or NM high end raw selling.

Most New Yorkers are well educated and good/bad and they aint leaving money on the table in that city hardly ever.

If it's too good to be true usually it is, especially in NYC.  There is a reason you are getting a Hulk #181 raw on eBay selling at auction from that area.  They are smarter than most and trying to rip you off.

Many NYers are great sellers, but you have to be careful from the ones that you think you are getting a much better than retail deal on, especially on raw books via eBay.

Edited December 29, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[brute_nm]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:48 PM, William-James88 said:

Doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Dylan was using a loophole for his blue labelled restored comics but this individual is simply asking for a reholder and CGC takes their money and complies without caring that a 9.8 looks like .

There is no loophole here unless you consider corporate greed and ineptitude to be a loophole. 

I think this is why their statement ticks me off, they are saying it's all the fault of a bad actor and yet they are the ones who looked at that ASM 9.8 and went, "that checks out". 

 

 

I imagine the "reholder dept" is neither trained in grading nor have the clout to second-guess the assigned grade. They simply open the holder, grab a new one of the shelf, and close it up. Rinse repeat for 8hr shift.

Edited December 29, 2023 by brute_nm