ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:15 PM, William-James88 said:

... machine?

Worthpoint

[universal soldier]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:06 PM, Heronext said:

YouTubers vs Boardies

<-- Parking lot

Midnight tonight 

[agamoto]

The ASM129

 

 

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 4:09 PM, RonS2112 said:

Why would you think it would/should be HARD for anyone who had precise knowledge of the technique for opening a slab?  I mean, it's not like CGC employees doing reholdering want to use a hammer to get a book out of a slab.  THere was ALWAYS going to be an easy way to get a book out that presented low risk to the book itself.  And if you think about it, it took YEARS for one technique to be made public.

Like it or not, this sort of thing is often times the cost of doing business on a large scale.

This is where I have to interject and remind everyone once again that what Rick @ Immaculate demonstrated is a rough proof of concept. He did not conclusively prove you can crack a slab and reseal it with no trace of alternation to the slab. He admits this in his video, and I've asked him to reiterate this as it's getting out of control.

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:06 PM, Heronext said:

YouTubers vs Boardies

Parking lot

Midnight tonight 

I have to kind of agree with the sentiment. So many pundits on youtube regurgitating, misunderstanding, conflating, and missing a lot of the info. I guess they don't like 200 page threads either, so I get it.

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 5:07 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

Mikey you forgot "and the work of his trusted podcast partner..." 

Hey ya'll we're going live again tonight, just to chat with the community and friends, if you want to join, 6:30 pm PT

 

I know you guys aren't lawyers, and MAN does this subject need some lawyering, but I'm surprised you guys seem to think CGC can be trusted to self-police on this thing. 

[brute_nm]

@agamoto thank you!

@Mdesimone

On 12/29/2023 at 10:00 PM, agamoto said:

The ASM129

 

 

On 12/29/2023 at 2:23 PM, brute_nm said:

@comicwiz or @agamoto, can you please find this sale in WorthPoint and give the info (like eBay item #, etc.) to @Mdesimone for his claim to CGC fraud dept.

ASM #129 9.0 sold 10-Dec-2019

[BrashL]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:19 PM, agamoto said:

I know you guys aren't lawyers, and MAN does this subject need some lawyering, but I'm surprised you guys seem to think CGC can be trusted to self-police on this thing. 

It’s interesting but I’m getting a change in vibe from a lot of YouTube folks. I think when they thought this was limited to a few hundred books it was exciting and it would get more clicks. Now that it’s blown up and could be encompass thousands and thousands of comics they are freaking out and want to put the genie back in the bottle. 

[LordRahl]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:19 PM, agamoto said:

I know you guys aren't lawyers, and MAN does this subject need some lawyering, but I'm surprised you guys seem to think CGC can be trusted to self-police on this thing. 

I don't trust CGC as far as I can throw their president... which isn't very far. I do trust in the instinct of self preservation, even if it is at a corporate level. CGC will do what it needs to in order to stay in business, and ONLY what it needs to. CGC is in the business of making money and they know that policing this to the extent possible will alleviate enough doubts that it will allow them to continue to make money. So they will do what they need to do.

[LordRahl]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:25 PM, BrashL said:

It’s interesting but I’m getting a change in vibe from a lot of YouTube folks. I think when they thought this was limited to a few hundred books it was exciting and it would get more clicks. Now that it’s blown up and could be encompass thousands and thousands of comics they are freaking out and want to put the genie back in the bottle. 

It is highly, highly unlikely that this is running rampant and there are dozens and dozens of scammers out there doing this to thousands of books. If there were thousands of books involved, it multiplies the chances of getting caught and some other books would have been caught prior to now. The likely scenario is that this is fairly limited and because of that has stayed under the radar. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:22 PM, comeaux said:

CGC has been incompetent for over 30 years.

That's horrible for a 23 year old company.

[comeaux]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:58 PM, Nick Furious said:

That's pretty impressive.  

Yea I meant to type 20 years 

[comeaux]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:32 PM, Sigur Ros said:

That's horrible for a 23 year old company.

See above  

Edited December 30, 2023 by comeaux

[BrashL]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:30 PM, LordRahl said:

It is highly, highly unlikely that this is running rampant and there are dozens and dozens of scammers out there doing this to thousands of books. If there were thousands of books involved, it multiplies the chances of getting caught and some other books would have been caught prior to now. The likely scenario is that this is fairly limited and because of that has stayed under the radar. 

I totally disagree. We can be reasonably sure this single bad actor has been opening CGC slabs for at least 4-5 years and was only caught by a collector who specialized in a niche of the hobby and followed basically every sale. The slabs aren’t hard to open, and it’s inconceivable only one person has ever figured it out before now. 

[LordRahl]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:39 PM, BrashL said:

I totally disagree. We can be reasonably sure this single bad actor has been opening CGC slabs for at least 4-5 years and was only caught by a collector who specialized in a niche of the hobby and followed basically every sale. The slabs aren’t hard to open, and it’s inconceivable only one person has ever figured it out before now. 

Believe what you like. Matters not to me. However, consider this. 1st gen slabs are easy to open, this is common knowledge (at least to those that have been around more than 5 minutes). It isn't just about the knowledge that something is easy to do. Simple math and logic would dictate that the more examples you have of something that is irregular, the higher the likelihood that someone will notice said irregularity. There are a LOT of eyes on high grade comics. There are a lot of high grade comics being cracked and re-subbed in the hopes of a higher grade. CPR is a thing. IF there were thousands of examples out there of switched out books, more would have come to light by now. 

 

[BlancoBros]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:54 PM, paqart said:

Re: Insurance

Unless the amount is enough to break the bank, it is cheaper to pay the buyers out of pocket. I spoke with an executive I know in the insurance business about this. He said that companies of CGC's size are highly unlikely to make a claim of this type. If they did make a claim, their rates would go up "forever" and never go back down. "having insurance" and making a claim are totally different things.

Agreed. Just like car accidents. You have a minor fender bender, pay cash so your premiums don't go.
But, if you have a major accident, cars totaled, people hurt; go with your insurance.

And that's what we have here: A major accident. With a possibly for a class-action lawsuit.

[BrashL]

On 12/29/2023 at 11:50 PM, LordRahl said:

Believe what you like. Matters not to me. However, consider this. 1st gen slabs are easy to open, this is common knowledge (at least to those that have been around more than 5 minutes). It isn't just about the knowledge that something is easy to do. Simple math and logic would dictate that the more examples you have of something that is irregular, the higher the likelihood that someone will notice said irregularity. There are a LOT of eyes on high grade comics. There are a lot of high grade comics being cracked and re-subbed in the hopes of a higher grade. CPR is a thing. IF there were thousands of examples out there of switched out books, more would have come to light by now. 

 

You responded so I’m sure it matters to you, as it should. I suspect CGC knows the full extent of this activity but does everything they can to keep it from coming to light. 

[comeaux]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:39 PM, William-James88 said:

It's not wrong. Stuff like what I am linking to below is inexcusable for a company claiming to be experts in this field 

 

 

Yea man you notice I made one typo so that makes everything I said invalid to the CGC cheerleaders 

The missing page you linked is abhorrent but there are 1000’s of CGC boneheaded train wrecks like this and it’s pathetic but wait for the CGC Calvary to arrive because “muh slabs” I gotta sell. It’s all about their money. I’m about to start cracking a few slabs just to see what kind of McDonalds level grading & quality control I paid for. 

Stuffing comics sealed in a Hefty bag into a $5 plastic Chinese box is mundane work but these clowns can’t even put the book right-side up with the correct label 

 

 

[MGsimba77]

Someone on Instagram suggested embossing the cert number on the slab in more than one place including the inner well as one step they can take. I'm sure this isn't nearly a cure all and don't think there's a way of insulating 100% against a talented/determined fraudster. Maybe there's some way of stamping or coding the books themselves but I'd suspect that'd be out of the question for most.

If people had some ideas on how to full proof a slab against shenanigans or al least improve upon whats been done please share. Just seems like a more profitable way of spending time here instead of becoming fatalistic talking about the hobby getting nuked or repeatedly ragging on a company (while being on their chatboard no less 😕). 

[agamoto]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:11 PM, MGsimba77 said:

Someone on Instagram suggested embossing the cert number on the slab in more than one place including the inner well as one step they can take. I'm sure this isn't nearly a cure all and don't think there's a way of insulating 100% against a talented/determined fraudster. Maybe there's some way of stamping or coding the books themselves but I'd suspect that'd be out of the question for most.

If people had some ideas on how to full proof a slab against shenanigans or al least improve upon whats been done please share. Just seems like a more profitable way of spending time here instead of becoming fatalistic talking about the hobby getting nuked or repeatedly ragging on a company (while being on their chatboard no less 😕). 

CGC has graded something like 8 million comics right? It's Chinese math, but if only 1/10th of 1% are switcheroos, that's 8000 slabs floating around out there that aren't what they say they are. The problem going forward is actually really simple. stamp the cert on the innerwell and seal ALL edges of the case, not just the top and sides. No one would be able to get into a case without destroying it, even with heat applied, if it can't be pried open. I believe they are already putting weld marks on the left side of the cases shipped out after 8/1/2023 as a "signature" of the case so they can internally identify it. They can't just address the future, they have to address the past too. That's a tough one.