ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[NewWorldOrder]

The scammer GOAT.

I was at that show as a 12 year old.  I scammed my parents because I cut that school to attend that show.

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:55 PM, wombat said:

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. 

my bad someone in the other threads said they didn't need to fool cgc, so cgc needed a new case, but it wouldn't "fix it" due to someone still being able to swap the 20 years worth of cases out there.

It is I who got sidetracked

[wombat]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:56 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

On 12/30/2023 at 8:52 PM, wombat said:

Why wasn't CGC catching the tampered case? 

Personally I don't think it was looked at as possible tamper. 

I believe most of these were slid in under the guise of a damaged holder for ME / Reholder. And by sending them in that way got the quick path to a speed cursory check that label and inner well appears intact and straight to the new label and encapsulating stage. Which is what a lot of members here have stated a few times in this thread. 

If they couldn't quickly tell the difference between tampering with the possibility of swapping out a book and ME that seems like it was done well enough to be successful. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:57 PM, wombat said:

If they couldn't quickly tell the difference between tampering with the possibility of swapping out a book and ME that seems like it was done well enough to be successful. 

but then why send it to cgc for reholder at all?

If he was "good enough", he'd just sell them swapped resealed. Why send to CGC and risk getting caught?

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:57 PM, wombat said:

If they couldn't quickly tell the difference between tampering with the possibility of swapping out a book and ME that seems like it was done well enough to be successful. 

or it just means someone didnt check the book for 1st grade basic protocols.

That is what my $ is on.

Edited December 31, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:57 PM, wombat said:

If they couldn't quickly tell the difference between tampering with the possibility of swapping out a book and ME that seems like it was done well enough to be successful. 

As others have stated . The case can be really smashed / cracked split in half or entirely missing as long as label and inner well are intact. 

However to do it the number of times he did it would have to be more consistent.  Using the example video everyone keeps referring to where they crack a case and that 1 corner is noticeably damaged. If he were to do that to say 5-10 books that he swapped it would look like the whole submission was damaged in transit and qualify for ME reholder. 

[wombat]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:00 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

On 12/30/2023 at 8:57 PM, wombat said:

If they couldn't quickly tell the difference between tampering with the possibility of swapping out a book and ME that seems like it was done well enough to be successful. 

or it just means someone didnt check the book for 1st grade basic protocols.

Maybe. Or maybe he figured out how to swap the books and look like it wasn't tampered with. Both are possibilities. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:55 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

The case is irrelevant when it gets to CGC, the real question is the book and the label that comes with it.

Sometimes I dont even send in the case when I need a reholder to save on weight costs.  I smash it and just send the inner well and the label.

This is the problem, cgc didn't even care enough to "look over a book" when just in an inner well? Why fake the case at all then?

Unless they did look it over, no way of telling. The book you got back probably looked the same as you sent etc.

[pdags]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:59 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

If he was "good enough", he'd just sell them swapped resealed. Why send to CGC and risk getting caught?

The reality is, nobody knows the scope.  There are a couple of reasons why the scammer sent them into CGC...

• What if the scammer was successful 75% or the time?  
• What if the scammer sent in a bunch of "damaged" slabs to make the mark jeweler change requests less noticeable (which CGC is needed for)?
• What if the scammer decided to send them in just to hide the evidence?  Perhaps you couldn't tell visually, but if you suspected something you could find evidence of chemical compounds, etc.
• What if the scammer realized he could make more profit with a new label and something freshly returned from CGC?

Optimistic thinking is what got us in this mess.  We need to stop assuming best case scenarios, lowering the urgency.

Edited December 31, 2023 by pdags

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:03 PM, wombat said:

Maybe. Or maybe he figured out how to swap the books and look like it wasn't tampered with. Both are possibilities. 

This hasn't been ruled out. It has been speculated that he may have even done this when he started before gaining enough experience and confidence to actually send them back to CGC. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:03 PM, wombat said:

Maybe. Or maybe he figured out how to swap the books and look like it wasn't tampered with. Both are possibilities. 

By then why send it to CGC to reholders if he can just reseal and sell?

Edited December 31, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:04 PM, pdags said:

The reality is, nobody knows the scope.  There are a couple of reasons why the scammer sent them into CGC...

• What if the scammer was successful 75% or the time?  
• What if the scammer sent in a bunch of "damaged" slabs to make the mark jeweler change requests less noticeable (which CGC is needed for)?
• What if the scammer decided to send them in just to hide the evidence?  Perhaps you couldn't tell visually, but if you suspected something you could find evidence of chemical compounds, etc.

Optimistic thinking is what got us in this mess.  We need to stop assuming best case scenarios and lower the urgency.

Got my answer

On 12/30/2023 at 8:05 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

By then why send it to CGC to reholders if he can just reseal and sell?

It's for label notations

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:05 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

By then why send it to CGC to reholders if he can just resell and sell?

It is all speculation at this point. Both are still possibilities.  He may have only sent back ones that he messed up the swap to cover his mistakes. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:03 PM, wombat said:

Maybe. Or maybe he figured out how to swap the books and look like it wasn't tampered with. Both are possibilities. 

Tampered or not a Hulk #181 having MVS should never not be checked.

So what you are saying is the person was lacking in doing their job is my point.

If all basic protocols were followed the scammer would have made $0 dollars of profit.

I dont care about the case.  Check each book as they are supposed to do each time.

Edited December 31, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[RobHW]

I hate this has happened.  I love what CGC has done for collecting comics.  But I fear this is catastrophic.  One skilled swapper can do an untold amount of contamination.  Yet there could be more than one swapper.  I'm convinced a skilled and practiced hand could swap undetected all day.  Even 3 digit value books could be worth swapping.  My God, we are undone.  For crying out loud, the only reason this was caught was the hubris of the swapper.  Do you realize any sold and returned slabbed book may well have been returned swapped?  While we sat smugly confident, thieves have rotted our world from the inside out.  

[HighGrade]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:52 PM, wombat said:

Why wasn't CGC catching the tampered case? 

Well, in the case of label upgrade, the person or persons changing those was just a grunt with zero interest or care in the process, but just get it done in the speed they are requested to do it in, so they didn't even look. that's one way it was missed, and inexcusable.

Or in the case of damaged holders, if you have damage on a bottom corner or heaven forbid both corners, does said employee see if it can be removed before doing the reholder? should they..Yes, did they NO.

So really people are speculating it was a resealed holder, we don't know, I think it was MUCH easier than going through all the trouble of sealing anything to fool CGC, it was sadly much easier than that, so all this resealed talk is just that...TALK.
CGC will HAVE to come forward and honestly tell us the internal mistakes, and the case is secure, otherwise people will continue to talk about resealed holders.

Like others have said, if it was that easy to swap and reseal, where are they? and why on earth would the scammer even attempt to send to CGC? just swap and sell, right?

[wombat]

And to the point why did he send them in, no matter what the answer, we have no idea if he was also selling others directly. 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:09 PM, RobHW said:

I hate this has happened.  I love what CGC has done for collecting comics.  But I fear this is catastrophic.  One skilled swapper can do an untold amount of contamination.  Yet there could be more than one swapper.  I'm convinced a skilled and practiced hand could swap undetected all day.  Even 3 digit value books could be worth swapping.  My God, we are undone.  For crying out loud, the only reason this was caught was the hubris of the swapper.  Do you realize any sold and returned slabbed book may well have been returned swapped?  While we sat smugly confident, thieves have rotted our world from the inside out.  

I am convinced you need to relax.

There is no proof of anyone alive being able to do what you just said.

[Lightning55]

On 12/30/2023 at 2:20 PM, Heronext said:

Just to whiteboard this (having just watched "The Gold" on Paramount+ which I heard about from iFanboy and recommend), I think we have "The Account" - the CGC account, who might be Joe Blow in Wahoo, Alaska who owns a comic shop and/or pressing business, and there's "The Front" - Mary Contrary, the return address on the packages of scammer's customers.  What is the link between "Front" and "Account", are people being forthcoming about it, are middlemen involved, who knew what and when did they know it. Someone in the middle who works or has worked for Joe Blow might be slipping their own books in with the larger submissions with or without others' knowledge.  Disclaimer: Just one person's armchair theory that requires proof and testing. "Middleman" might very well have their own CGC account.

Nobody "slips" books into someone else's submission. No one is foolish enough to pay for grading on books they didn't submit, mysteriously showing up on their dashboard. And if this middleman has his own account, he's paying for it anyway, has his own submission number, what's the point of horning in on someone else's submission?

This will only make sense if you drag in Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis, and finish with a fake moon landing.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 6:14 PM, Lightning55 said:

Nobody "slips" books into someone else's submission. No one is foolish enough to pay for grading on books they didn't submit, mysteriously showing up on their dashboard. And if this middleman has his own account, he's paying for it anyway, has his own submission number, what's the point of horning in on someone else's submission?

This will only make sense if you drag in Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis, and finish with a fake moon landing.

We all will find Jimmy Hoffa before we find someone alive that can perfectly swipe out this current CGC case and leave no tampering evidence.