ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:49 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

Exactly. If he was so good at it? why was he then sending to CGC for a reholder,

Because he was chasing an 'official' blue label upgrade on a green label book. Thousands in profit if it's a Hulk #181.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:04 PM, pdags said:

Optimistic thinking is what got us in this mess.  We need to stop assuming best case scenarios, lowering the urgency.

Yes. As I mentioned earlier, this IS the Worst Case Scenario. Some people are really underestimating the enormity and ramifications of this whole debacle.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Steven Valdez

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:01 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Because he was chasing an 'official' blue label upgrade on a green label book. Thousands in profit if it's a Hulk #181.

The person I was responding to was stating that the swap was so good and case not showing damage, I asked if THAT was true why did he then send it to cgc? The revamped case I mean. Not the original high grade issue. Obviously he'd have to send in legit high grades, but why was he then swapping in the low grades into the high, and then sending that swapped in to CGC for reholder... If in fact he could swap books so flawlessly. He'd just sell the swapped low into the high, while keeping the high grade for Future submissions  without sending to cgc 

The answer was mark jewelers and other notations. Still a good question because I don't think all of them were for notations.

In other words if cgc fixes the worker who failed in duties to check books all would be fine. But people are going to need evidence that this is now true, and that people can't swap so flawlessly and not have to send to cgc

Edited December 31, 2023 by ADAMANTIUM

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 3:31 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

The person I was responding to was stating that the swap was so good and case not showing damage, I asked if THAT was true why did he then send it to cgc? The revamped case I mean. Not the original high grade issue. Obviously he'd have to send in legit high grades, but why was he then swapping in the low grades into the high, and then sending that swapped in to CGC for reholder... If in fact he could swap books so flawlessly. He'd just sell the swapped low into the high, while keeping the high grade for Future submissions 

The answer was mark jewelers and other notations. Still a good question because I don't think all of them were for notations.

In other words if cgc fixes the worker who failed in duties to check books all would be fine. But people are going to need evidence that this is now true, and that people can't swap so flawlessly and not have to send to cgc

Oh, I see.... This whole thing is more confusing now than it was on Day 1!  I'm not sure this is the right answer, but I gather the perp was trying to get his suspect books into brand new cases with the new illustrated labels instead of just swapping into older cases..?! He probably just kept getting away with it so kept submitting over and over. Maybe he was a highly trusted submitter so they tended to take him at his word. Sorry if I'm missing the point of what your saying.

[wombat]

As someone else said, it could be that he only sent in when he damaged more than expected (apart from the notations). Pure speculation of course. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:40 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Oh, I see.... This whole thing is more confusing now than it was on Day 1!  I'm not sure this is the right answer, but I gather the perp was trying to get his suspect books into brand new cases with the new illustrated labels instead of just swapping into older cases..?! He probably just kept getting away with it so kept submitting over and over. Maybe he was a highly trusted submitter so they tended to take him at his word. Sorry if I'm missing the point of what your saying.

When every post has to be half a page to repeat it all and make sense, it's understandable that it is too convoluted or easy to miss every point. I don't blame you in the slightest.

Try all that when everyone is posting at the same time and it gets all thumbs really quick!

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 3:47 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

When every post has to be half a page to repeat it all and make sense, it's understandable that it is too convoluted or easy to miss every point. I don't blame you in the slightest.

Try all that when everyone is posting at the same time and it gets all thumbs really quick!

Yeah, there's just so much context around this when trying to frame a point.

[wiparker824]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:18 PM, grendel013 said:

Yeah. 227 pages and Brees Larson Rivas still hasn't showed up to the party.

Probably didn’t help that we had a rather large section of pages talking about how we can get the FBI on her case. That wasn’t very welcoming of us. Drew Brees Larson Rivas if you’re out there lurking please join us we will hold on the FBI until we hear your take on “Are prices still climbing or have they eased up a bit???”

What say you?

[awakeintheashes]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:18 PM, grendel013 said:

Yeah. 227 pages and Brees Larson Rivas still hasn't showed up to the party.

Probably still at the other party…

Edited December 31, 2023 by awakeintheashes

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:47 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Try all that when everyone is posting at the same time and it gets all thumbs really quick!

[thehumantorch]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:09 PM, RobHW said:

I hate this has happened.  I love what CGC has done for collecting comics.  But I fear this is catastrophic.  One skilled swapper can do an untold amount of contamination.  Yet there could be more than one swapper.  I'm convinced a skilled and practiced hand could swap undetected all day.  Even 3 digit value books could be worth swapping.  My God, we are undone.  For crying out loud, the only reason this was caught was the hubris of the swapper.  Do you realize any sold and returned slabbed book may well have been returned swapped?  While we sat smugly confident, thieves have rotted our world from the inside out.  

Take it easy Rob.  This is at best a few hundred books or at worst a few thousand.  CGC knows who this guy is and they'll track down the books he submitted and make it right and address the issues he exposed.  Could there be other people pulling this scam?  Maybe but let's not panic until we have proof.

I have a lot of slabs and I'm not worried.  CGC has graded a lot of books and relatively this is a pimple on a moose.  

[Comics]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:48 AM, Iconic1s said:

I honestly don’t understand what use the authentic patch is once it’s removed though.  How would that even be authenticated at that point?

i think they probably had a white patch then took a 4 color patch from a teammate's card, inserted the fancy patch then sent it in. A very similar scam to the one we are seeing. I could't find out how anyone spotted it but many people caught it right away.

[thehumantorch]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:18 PM, grendel013 said:

Yeah. 227 pages and Brees Larson Rivas still hasn't showed up to the party.

Probably posting in this thread...

[Buzzetta]

Has anyone had the chance to tag board mainstay @Calamerica and have him weigh in on this?

[wombat]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:03 AM, thehumantorch said:

Probably posting in this thread...

No I'm not................I mean ha ha. That would be funny. 

 

[brute_nm]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:11 PM, wombat said:

No I'm not................I mean ha ha. That would be funny. 

 

 

[Lightning55]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:04 PM, Steven Valdez said:

Yes. As I mentioned earlier, this IS the Worst Case Scenario. Some people are really underestimating the enormity and ramifications of this whole debacle.

In a Championship Boxing match, the worst case scenario would be getting knocked out in the early seconds of the first round. Fight over, go home. Or to the hospital, if warranted.

This scandal is more like a heavy body blow, one that takes time to recover from. You're not down, you're not out, but reeling a bit, scrambling to buy some time as you regain your footing.

I believe this scam involves much more than the few hundred slabs mentioned. Could easily be in the thousands.  But there are many things that will help mitigate the damage to CGC.

Some submitters, like myself, don't deal in high value comics, so no exposure. Some may never even hear of it. It may turn out that altered holders,  once more carefully examined, have a particular "tell" that reveals that they have been compromised. And we will know what to look for.

Could be that people are somewhat appeased by the remedies CGC might  offer, whether it's a tightening of standards, added security features, re-casing legacy holders, compensation for losses incurred from the scam, etc.

Decisions, probably very costly decisions, will have to be made as more information becomes available. Business, for CGC and the hobby in general, will go right along, maybe altered slightly, call it a slight limp for now. Over time, barring any new incidents, the limp will go away. Not the memory of it, but the effects.

We'll see how things progress in the coming months.

[Steven Valdez]

On 12/31/2023 at 4:14 PM, Lightning55 said:

In a Championship Boxing match, the worst case scenario would be getting knocked out in the early seconds of the first round. Fight over, go home. Or to the hospital, if warranted.

This scandal is more like a heavy body blow, one that takes time to recover from. You're not down, you're not out, but reeling a bit, scrambling to buy some time as you regain your footing.

I believe this scam involves much more than the few hundred slabs mentioned. Could easily be in the thousands.  But there are many things that will help mitigate the damage to CGC.

Some submitters, like myself, don't deal in high value comics, so no exposure. Some may never even hear of it. It may turn out that altered holders,  once more carefully examined, have a particular "tell" that reveals that they have been compromised. And we will know what to look for.

Could be that people are somewhat appeased by the remedies CGC might  offer, whether it's a tightening of standards, added security features, re-casing legacy holders, compensation for losses incurred from the scam, etc.

Decisions, probably very costly decisions, will have to be made as more information becomes available. Business, for CGC and the hobby in general, will go right along, maybe altered slightly, call it a slight limp for now. Over time, barring any new incidents, the limp will go away. Not the memory of it, but the effects.

We'll see how things progress in the coming months.

I hear you, but now the cat's out of the bag on how easy it is to open cases and swap books between them. For example, a lot of green labels are going to get free upgrades. Plenty of phony MJ inserts are suddenly going to appear too. And so on...

[drotto]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:59 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

but then why send it to cgc for reholder at all?

If he was "good enough", he'd just sell them swapped resealed. Why send to CGC and risk getting caught?

1. Comic collectors (and not always in a bad way) are very anal.  Many, especially with high grade books, would send the book back if they noticed any case damage, or demand at least a partial refund. He would get a reputation for selling damaged cases, and that would get around.  CGC seems to miss these.  Even if he would get noticed, what would CGC even do? Offer to regrade and reholder the book, or just send the book back? I doubt they would call him out for tampering, because they never saw this as a  weakness in their process, the were not looking for it. I doubt this would ever go beyond him and CGC, while selling possible tampered or damaged cases would spread like wildfire in the collecting community. He would have been found out faster selling bad cases to collectors then trying to get broken cases fixed by CGC. Hell this whole thing was found out because many collectors are detail oriented, very decerning, and again very anal. 

2. It gave him a way to get labels changed to note high value variants, or reclassify qualified books and have CGC legitimize the label. Then if a collector checks the certificate number, which high grade collectors do regularly, the book would be listed correctly on the census.  He found a way to use CGC's processes and census to give credibility to his books. Without sending them in this does not happen. 

3. It gives him a level of protection if a buyer questions the book they receive. He just points at the label and puts the blame on CGC.  He just says, hey CGC called it a 9.8, I am not the one that graded it, look at the census, it is listed right there. If you do not want it send it back. If they do he just sells it again. Eventually, somebody will keep it. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:21 AM, Steven Valdez said:

I hear you, but now the cat's out of the bag on how easy it is to open cases and swap books between them. For example, a lot of green labels are going to get free upgrades. Plenty of phony MJ inserts are suddenly going to appear too. And so on...

If CGC can show any markers, evidence of tampering on a case, they are off the hook. They don't warrant the case to be tamper proof, just tamper evident.

If it has been altered (and CGC wasn't involved in the altering, an example being a direct swap and reseal by a scammer), that's not on them, no liability. And so they cover only the alleged CGC-aided swaps, possibly occurring during the reholder process. 

Bear in mind that CGC collectors make up a minority of comics collected worldwide, raw comics still prevailing. Of those, an even greater minority collected are 4-5 figure CGC comics. When talking about the number of units, it is a thin sliver of the market.