ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[godzilla43]

CGC needs first to create a form in their website where you could check if a slab has pictures and grader notes. Second give some timeline when the new slab will arrive. Third in that new slab the inner sleeve must have a ID-number as well and some CGC Hologram or something like that so you cannot just go to Target/Home Depot to fake those. Of course the inner sleeve ID-number must be seen inside the slab.
Finally if they can make a slab which is harder to crack then do that but anyways the inner sleeve is the most important thing not the slab.

I think 2024 Conventions are going to be interesting. Something like this might happen:

Customer: Hi, I am interested on couple of your CGC slabs.
Dealer: Okay, here.
Customer: Nice. I brought this highly sought after key to trade. It is a blue label 8.5. Which FMV seems to be about the same as those two books.
Dealer: Let me check. Ou it does not have any pictures in CGC-site.
Customer: Yes, it is a older one.
Dealer: In that case I cannot go forward with the trade. How about if you crack the slab and I can
personally check the comic book.
Customer: Hmm.. well okay. CRACK. Here you go.
Dealer: Yes, every think seems to be in order. It is a VF-NM copy with no restoration. So the FMV for raw VF-NM is $$. So I could trade one of my books to that.
Customer: But those don't have pictures in CGC-site neither. So if you can just crack those slabs and we can make a trade.
Dealer: You must joking! My slabs are good.
Customer: Crack the slabs!
Dealer: I think we cannot do business so have a nice day!

Edited December 31, 2023 by godzilla43

[wombat]

I posted this many many pages ago. Try making a deal at a con and trying to look up and compare pictures on your phone. Maybe dealers will start bringing big high def monitors now. 

[Heronext]

I think, when CGC grades every book, they should separately record interior defects, and exterior defects.

When a book comes in for reholdering, the reholderer should ask the following:

1) Does this comic match the image CGC took of it when we graded it?

2) Are the exterior defects (which I can see) and the interior defects (which I can't, but which were recorded) consistent with the grade?

3) Are there any new label notations being requested that weren't there before?

Point 2 is assuming they want to keep the current procedure of not opening the inner well

Additionally, I think the interior and exterior defects should be added to back label, as it defines a sort of "book signature"

[shadroch]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:28 AM, trademarkcomics said:

I don't know what you're talking about. I have been assured by the government that all of my money is represented in gold in the Federal Treasury. If I wanted to, I could just go pick up my gold at any time!

Which government was that? Not the US. They haven't issued or honored gold certificates since 1933, and stopped honoring silver certificates in 1965ish.

Edited December 31, 2023 by shadroch

[MAR1979]

On 12/31/2023 at 11:45 AM, shadroch said:

Which government was that? Not the US. 

We did go through that in detail 10-15 pages back.

Recap: Tricky D1cky Nixon and his cronies did away with that in 1971.

Edited December 31, 2023 by MAR1979

[sledgehammer]

He was being phuhseeshus, Bill

[shadroch]

On 12/31/2023 at 9:50 AM, MAR1979 said:

We did go through that in detail 10-15 pages back.

Recap: Tricky D1cky Nixon and his cronies did away with that in 1971.

No. The US stopped redeeming dollars for gold or silver long before Nixon.  Nixon took us off the gold standard—two different things.

[drotto]

We have to rethink the cases for what function the different components perform. Up till now, it has been assumed the hard outer case provides protection, and guarantees the book is what the label says it is. This is why CGC decided the label does not need to be attached to the inner well, and that inner well other than being sealed provides no identification. The inner well was just an added level of protection, the important thing was the outer case.

 

We need to reverse this.  The inner well needs to be viewed at what proves the comic is authentic. That is where the information can be affixed to the book. Since it is sealed in that well, it is very difficult to remove a book without causing damage to that protective plastic.  Apparently far harder then opening the outer case. That is why the label either needs to be permanently re-attached to the inner well and/or all the important information about the book must be permanently marked on the inner well. You could also implement some sort of "water mark" or hologram type image to the back potion of the inner well (do not want anything to obstruct the cover), which would be difficult to replicate. If that inner well is at all disturbed, the comic is now back to raw status.  The outer case can only be viewed as protecting the comic from damage, and has nothing to do with protecting authenticity. 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/31/2023 at 10:56 AM, drotto said:

We need to reverse this.  The inner well needs to be viewed at what proves the comic is authentic. That is where the information can be affixed to the book. Since it is sealed in that well, it is very difficult to remove a book without causing damage to that protective plastic.  Apparently far harder then opening the outer case. That is why the label either needs to be permanently re-attached to the inner well and/or all the important information about the book must be permanently marked on the inner well. You could also implement some sort of "water mark" or hologram type image to the back potion of the inner well (do not want anything to obstruct the cover), which would be difficult to replicate. If that inner well is at all disturbed, the comic is now back to raw status.  The outer case can only be viewed as protecting the comic from damage, and has nothing to do with protecting authenticity. 

I don't think I would mind if something was at the bottom of the back cover. Something in a small, straight line, as close to the bottom of the inner sleeve as possible.

Otherwise, it's a new holder design that's necessary.

[drotto]

On 12/31/2023 at 12:04 PM, sledgehammer said:

I don't think I would mind if something was at the bottom of the back cover. Something in a small, straight line, as close to the bottom of the inner sleeve as possible.

Otherwise, it's a new holder design that's necessary.

Changing the inner well like this would possibly save them from needing to redesign the entire case. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by drotto

[RobHW]

Look, folks.  A massive fraud has been perpetuated on us.  A fraud that has involved the United States Postal System and electronic money transfers.  These are federal crimes.  Where is the FBI?  Why are auction sites still selling potentially fraudulent works without even posting a warning?  How can CGC continue operations when they are right in the middle of the scandal?  Some folks think we should carry on as if nothing's happened until all the facts are in?  Really?  Some folks take joy on CGC's dilemma?  Just get lost, wouldja? We know there's a problem, a big problem.  Stop wishing it away.  Let's get some action and transparency.

[drotto]

Just had another thought.  CGC has never viewed the inner well as really being important.  When the new case first came out in the creep engine varient, they tried very hard to eliminated the inner well entirely. It was seen as a hindrance.  Everything was about the hard case. The only reason it was bought back is it was needed to properly center and hold books inside the case without damaging them.  So we have evidence they have never viewed the inner well as essential to maintaining certification. That is thr mindset that needs to change at CGC.

 

It is also now clear, the new case was only designed from the standpoint of improving presentation, and nothing to do with enhancing security.

[BlancoBros]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:25 AM, Iconic1s said:

I wonder if there is a way to infuse the case with something that, if exposed to extreme heat (such as from a heat gun) or certain chemicals, that the plastic would permanently discolor?

This is one possible issue i can see with this. Cgc is in florida. Temperatures are high. Now imagine those submissions being sent back are sitting is the back of a usps/ups/fedex trailer for an extended period of time. Or someone in texas, their package is sitting on their mailbox or on their lawn all day?

There are videos of people baking bread in their mailboxes...

Chances are that most books would be unaffected, but if there is a slight possibly that a few of them discolor, it would be a problem. The heat resistance of that substance would have to withhold up to a certain temperature.

[bc]

Microchips can provide secure identification for pennies per unit and are more reliable than tape/stickers and easier to apply than etching numbers on a case mid-assembly line.

Here's one for scale (not my finger):

Quick video showing some potential:

https://p-chip.com/solutions/anti-counterfeiting-solutions-for-electronics/

-bc

[RonS2112]

On 12/31/2023 at 10:13 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

After the boomers cycle out, younger generations will be left scratching their heads wondering what all THAT was about and at some point Goodwill is going to see trunk-loads of slabbed books not worth case cost.

Go to a local con and watch the total lack of movement of slabbed modern books.  What you describe is already happening.

[pdags]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:04 PM, bc said:

Microchips can provide secure identification for pennies per unit

I skimmed through the video and didn't see it mentioned, but what happens when I "accidentally" run a high power magnet over this?  I guess, if the chip is damaged in any way you automatically send the comic in for a full re-grade.

You would still need a way to positively I.D. the comic inside.  Two books that are almost identical, could still, possibly, pass for each other without extreme scrutiny.

Edited December 31, 2023 by pdags

[WolverineX]

no more reholders

[bc]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:43 PM, pdags said:

I skimmed through the video and didn't see it mentioned, but what happens when I "accidentally" run a high power magnet over this?  I guess, if the chip is damaged in any way you automatically send the comic in for a full re-grade.

You would still need a way to positively I.D. the comic inside.  Two books that are almost identical, could still, possibly, pass for each other.

Absolutely nothing happens.

-bc

[drotto]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:48 PM, bc said:

Absolutely nothing happens.

-bc

He'll, with a chip you can get very high tech and imbed the graders notes, pictures etc in it also.

[pdags]

On 12/31/2023 at 1:49 PM, drotto said:

with a chip you can get very high tech and imbed the graders notes, pictures etc in it also.

They would make it like a QR code and link to their website.  That way there would only be a single source of the truth/images/etc..