ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[drotto]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:32 AM, Junkdrawer said:

Back in the dawning days of VHS stores renting tapes out. They were expensive and the “unscrupulous” would open/tamper the plastic shell and remove the original and replace it with either a copy, a blank, or whatever. The good guys put a security label that was tamper evident. CGC simply needs a tamper evident sticker. 

Initially, I liked the sticker idea, more I think about it, not so much.  We have to remember how much some of these slabs are handled. Sold multiple times, shipped, in comic boxes, taken to shows, not to mention the number of hands just touching slabs. They would just never hold up and would either peel, or get very warn. 

 

Back to marking the inner well, and working on making the outer case more tamper evident.

[Mystafo]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:09 AM, drotto said:

Initially, I liked the sticker idea, more I think about it, not so much.  We have to remember how much some of these slabs are handled. Sold multiple times, shipped, in comic boxes, taken to shows, not to mention the number of hands just touching slabs. They would just never hold up and would either peel, or get very warn. 

 

Back to marking the inner well, and working on making the outer case more tamper evident.

Perhaps little interlocking "teeth" or tabs on each half of the clamshell that are too fragile to survive sonic un-welding or heat?

[pdags]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:09 AM, drotto said:

Back to marking the inner well, and working on making the outer case more tamper evident.

I know it's been discussed, but the more I think about it it's more like CGC didn't do a good job sonic welding the cases shut.  If all 4 ball-and-joints were pinched together then sonic welded well, they shouldn't come apart without snapping or breaking.  Too little welding and they can be popped apart, Too much welding you mar the case, Just the right welding and the socket becomes one with the ball.

Maybe they don't sonic weld the ball and sockets because it's too hard to re-holder?

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:55 AM, Mephisto said:

Are there really good ones? The eBay authentication ones for cards are a joke. I've had ones that I have peeled with no care at all that peeled perfect with no damage to the sticker at all.

I think there are, they are just at a higher price point than the cheapies. There'll be a tamper-proof sticker out there that will shred apart even with heat applied - it's just a matter of finding it.

[Krydel4]

Inner well gets impression stamped on the back with the same certification number as the outer well. They need to match in order to get a reholder. Guns have serial numbers on multiple parts so when you're buying you know that it is complete.

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:32 AM, Mystafo said:

Perhaps little interlocking "teeth" or tabs on each half of the clamshell that are too fragile to survive sonic un-welding or heat?

I rarely buy slabs so I don't think this incident has, or ever will affect me, but I do agree that a more tamper-evident slab would be a good safeguard for those who spend big money on slabs.

Add to that, the cert. # pressed/stamped/embossed into the inner well/sleeve and even the outer case.

Lastly, training CGC employees on what to look for.  I'm guessing that position is comfortable and they tend to miss things like condition clearly not matching grade, or even cracked slabs.

I won't pretend to tell CGC what they should do, but these things seem rational.   Aside from the huge cost of a redesigned case.

 

 

Edited January 3 by Sigur Ros

[CJ Design]

Just a reference to what I said about 200 pages ago...concerning pin-ups...I noticed in "Comic Selects" sold page he had a nice 7.5 FF 4 for $5500. That issue has a Mr Fantastic Pin-up. As I stated (because I'm a Missing Pin-up Freak) many High Value Keys had Marvel Masterwork Pin-ups. This avenue would have been a pricey in, but a nice reward. Just spit balling about another area of deceit for these bums. IE: FF 2,3,4 ASM 3,20,21,23 DD 5, 7 etc

[comicwiz]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:48 PM, CJ Design said:

Just a reference to what I said about 200 pages ago...concerning pin-ups...I noticed in "Comic Selects" sold page he had a nice 7.5 FF 4 for $5500. That issue has a Mr Fantastic Pin-up. As I stated (because I'm a Missing Pin-up Freak) many High Value Keys had Marvel Masterwork Pin-ups. This avenue would have been a pricey in, but a nice reward. Just spit balling about another area of deceit for these bums. IE: FF 2,3,4 ASM 3,20,21,23 DD 5, 7 etc

Books requiring interior inspection are the ones that I first began using in my approach/strategy. The issue becomes what was the prevailing thinking for each example. We don't know (at least not yet) why we haven't seen any purple to blue. Too gutsy? I think it's because Hulk 181's are notorious for missing the MVS, and so the supply of qualifieds that have already had graders eyes on it, and going for better presenting than assigned grade, to make the kind of jumps we've seen a little more believable, and not trigger doubt enough to scrutinize more carefully. It's a laser guided approach, gets you thinking like the bad actor, and more of a custom-catered strategy to tackle searches for a match with each nuanced book. I've looked over that FF 4, and hadn't thought about the missing pin-up, I decided instead to work from purple labels. I may not find many qualified, but spit-balling is good if it can bring about some ideas to form strategies around. 

[CJ Design]

Yes CW...I've come across so Many NICE ASM 3's and 20's being listed for $$$. I will ask is the pin-up present...the say "the story is complete"...I say count the pages....I get "Oh I didn't know it had a pin-up...". Some are legit...some are less than scrupulous....and these are the RawDogs.

Edited January 3 by CJ Design

[topcat54]

Ok I have a question do all the companies who grade books use the same type slab? Not going down a worm hole if they do then what's to say it had to be a CGC slab they cracked?

Again only a question.

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:32 PM, topcat54 said:

Ok I have a question do all the companies who grade books use the same type slab? Not going down a worm hole if they do then what's to say it had to be a CGC slab they cracked?

Again only a question.

No, they definitely don't use the same slab.

And it didn't matter where the source book came from.  Whether raw, slabbed, etc.  If you mean why was it a CGC slab they used for the final product, well value and ease of tampering are the likely answers.  

[comicwiz]

The middle transition period between the three accounts has presented some challenges. I have yet to reconcile why there are a number of gaps I've identified in that middle period, for a few summer months on several books, but nonetheless troubling when you start peeling back each layer.

Applying the pattern of repeating certification numbers across the 1681 records, we uncover another troubling example of a certification number which seemingly first sold on eBay in 2019, then when it reappeared through the alleged seller involved in this tampering incident, where the comic not only changed, but was in a condition lacking merit for the assigned grade on the label. The last iteration, is where it ended-up on Heritage. These are the screenshots of the listings, provided for context/posterity, as well as front/back scans for each, and original recorded sale date and price.

Cert: 0013796019 (3 matches)

1. ebay | Cert: 0013796019 | sparklecitycomics | 11/24/2019 | $6,001

 

2. Cert: 0013796019 [5/8/2021] - $21,995

3. heritage | Cert: 0013796019 | 1/2/2022 | $12,600

Edited February 15 by comicwiz

[EastEnd1]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:47 PM, comicwiz said:

The middle transition period between the three accounts has presented some challenges. I have yet to reconcile why there are a number of gaps I've identified in that middle period, for a few summer months on several books, but nonetheless troubling when you start peeling back each layer.

Applying the pattern of repeating certification numbers across the 1681 records, we uncover another troubling example of a certification number which seemingly first sold on eBay in 2019, then when it reappeared through a zangelor listing, where the comic not only changed, but was in a condition lacking merit for the assigned grade on the label. The last iteration, is where it ended-up on Heritage. These are the screenshots of the listings, provided for context/posterity, as well as front/back scans for each, and original recorded sale date and price.

Cert: 0013796019 (3 matches)

1. ebay | Cert: 0013796019 | sparklecitycomics | 11/24/2019 | $6,001

 

zaneglor Cert: 0013796019 [5/8/2021] - $19,800 ($21,995)

heritage | Cert: 0013796019 | 1/2/2022 | $12,600

 

Looks like it got pressed on that last go around with Heritage.

[drotto]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:04 PM, comicwiz said:

Books requiring interior inspection are the ones that I first began using in my approach/strategy. The issue becomes what was the prevailing thinking for each example. We don't know (at least not yet) why we haven't seen any purple to blue. Too gutsy? I think it's because Hulk 181's are notorious for missing the MVS, and so the supply of qualifieds that have already had graders eyes on it, and going for better presenting than assigned grade, to make the kind of jumps we've seen a little more believable, and not trigger doubt enough to scrutinize more carefully. It's a laser guided approach, gets you thinking like the bad actor, and more of a custom-catered strategy to tackle searches for a match with each nuanced book. I've looked over that FF 4, and hadn't thought about the missing pin-up, I decided instead to work from purple labels. I may not find many qualified, but spit-balling is good if it can bring about some ideas to form strategies around. 

As far as restoration goes....

 

1. Is it just more obvious to the knowledgeable collectors, so they are afraid it would get spotted faster?

2. Is it lower yield, meaning the numbers to hid this are not there, and resto is far more a GA and SA issue.

3. Is the cost benefit to risk factor not there? Most resto marked books tend to be lower grade and amateur.  The high grade ones are already very expensive, and usually have an obvious look to them.

[sledgehammer]

Good lord. Would anybody call that a 7.0?

[Silver Surfer]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:47 AM, comicwiz said:

The middle transition period between the three accounts has presented some challenges. I have yet to reconcile why there are a number of gaps I've identified in that middle period, for a few summer months on several books, but nonetheless troubling when you start peeling back each layer.

Applying the pattern of repeating certification numbers across the 1681 records, we uncover another troubling example of a certification number which seemingly first sold on eBay in 2019, then when it reappeared through a zangelor listing, where the comic not only changed, but was in a condition lacking merit for the assigned grade on the label. The last iteration, is where it ended-up on Heritage. These are the screenshots of the listings, provided for context/posterity, as well as front/back scans for each, and original recorded sale date and price.

Cert: 0013796019 (3 matches)

1. ebay | Cert: 0013796019 | sparklecitycomics | 11/24/2019 | $6,001

 

zaneglor Cert: 0013796019 [5/8/2021] - $19,800 ($21,995)

heritage | Cert: 0013796019 | 1/2/2022 | $12,600

Great work. Just so I’m following correctly:

- Book acquired through Sparklecity for $6k.

- Gets a new label and a switcheroo is done, fake or real sale for $21K?
- Same label number sells on Heritage for $12k? 

[techtre2003]

On 1/3/2024 at 10:45 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I think there are, they are just at a higher price point than the cheapies. There'll be a tamper-proof sticker out there that will shred apart even with heat applied - it's just a matter of finding it.

I don't know if they still use them, but Microsoft used to use stickers on OEM PCs and XBOXs that would turn black when heat was applied. The damaged sticker would invalidate their warranty.

[LordRahl]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:18 AM, Silver Surfer said:

Great work. Just so I’m following correctly:

- Book acquired through Sparklecity for $6k.

- Gets a new label and a switcheroo is done, fake or real sale for $21K?
- Same label number sells on Heritage for $12k? 

I'm slightly confused too but I think what happened is original book was bought from Sparkle. It was then switched with an 8.0ish book and sold as 9.2 by zaneglor. The person who bought it from zaneglor CPR'd the book and sold it on Heritage. Coincidentally it got a 9.2 after being CPR'd, even though it was a lower grade book than the original 9.2. 

[Stefan_W]

On 1/3/2024 at 2:02 PM, drotto said:

As far as restoration goes....

 

1. Is it just more obvious to the knowledgeable collectors, so they are afraid it would get spotted faster?

2. Is it lower yield, meaning the numbers to hid this are not there, and resto is far more a GA and SA issue.

3. Is the cost benefit to risk factor not there? Most resto marked books tend to be lower grade and amateur.  The high grade ones are already very expensive, and usually have an obvious look to them.

I am pretty sure it comes down to a quick cost-benefit analysis. Rolling moderns like Hulk 181s and NM 98s is pretty quick and easy, and there is a high demand for copies. SA and GA books are expensive to grade and a restoration may be spotted. The scammer is not a genius, but even as such it would not take much thought to come to the conclusion that quickly rolling select modern books is the quickest and easiest bang for the buck. 

Having said all of this I would not be surprised if the scammer tried pulling a switcheroo with older books a few times to test the waters. Con artists often try to be well-rounded when it comes to their craft. 

[Silver Surfer]

That what I thought too but I wasn’t sure if the $21k sale was legit. Man that’s a 50% + haircut on the resale, ouch.