ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Yorick]

It'd be a bummer to have won one of those dream 9.8's, find out it's not really a 9.8, have CGC reimburse your purchase price, and then have to go track down another 9.8 at possibly a much higher cost.  If I had one of those books, I'd want CGC to obtain a real 9.8 for me.  Forget the money.

[Yorick]

On 1/3/2024 at 3:20 PM, LordRahl said:

So you and @sledgehammer think this

 

 

Looks better than the below?

 

You can clearly see the paper on both the front cover and back cover in the zangelor pics is crumpled and bent backwards whereas it's straight in the Heritage scans. 100% pressed and 100% looks better than the crumpled up pre-press book.

Lighting the book differently will make certain flaws less visible.  The HA photo just doesn't have shadows cast from that bent corner with a single source light.  I don't believe the book above was pressed.

[gmasstermcd]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:09 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

I know if I dig more into my submissions I can find more examples, but here is one of the submissions where I had graders notes on all 8 books including the 9.8s.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Yes you have a submission that had 4 qualified books that basically require graders notes the 2 9.6's and two 9.8's I can see this having an easily explanation that the grader had to put notes on at least half the books so they just did notes on  the whole submission. This doesn't seem like an unexplained statistical outlier.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:32 AM, gmasstermcd said:

2020 and 2023 so it's nothing to do with the "previous" way they graded.

I was only referring to it as a possible reason there may have been notes . I.e. the grader has been there a while, or used to making notes on all books for review/ comparison. 

On 1/4/2024 at 12:32 AM, gmasstermcd said:

In this timeline saying that CGC added these notes after the drama happened. If that is the case they only "became" useful because they weren't there before the drama. If they were there before and not kept internal then they would have been helpful before and after. 

I am not saying that is what happened, but a possibility and I agree any notes that are made should all be made available (which I believe is there policy now that the number of graders has changed and the notes able to be looked up /linked to the qr codes they added. ) 

On 1/4/2024 at 12:32 AM, gmasstermcd said:

Hiding information and then releasing it after a problem arises is not useful. 

Completely agree. 

On 1/4/2024 at 12:32 AM, gmasstermcd said:

The fact that over 60% of the 9.8's have graders notes is a statistical outlier. Did CGC add them after the fact? maybe. Was there an inside man adding extra notes for these submissions as a way to evade scrutiny from people looking at the books and saying this isn't a 9.8? Maybe it's all speculation the only thing I know is that of the 55 ASM 194 9.8's  37 have graders notes and that is a ridiculously higher rate than any other books I have ever seen or heard of before. 

Also agree. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:52 PM, COMICLINK said:

The Avengers 57 8.5 is one of the ones that ComicLink sold multiple times and I reviewed the sellers, buyers and the images. The images are the same in each case, and the book is fine.  

What do you mean the images are fine? The scammer gets the books reholdered, so the images in the database of course match up.

Edited January 4 by THE_BEYONDER

[sledgehammer]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:40 PM, Lightning55 said:

On 1/3/2024 at 11:23 PM, sledgehammer said:

No, I'm pretty sure that comiclink has confirmed that this is THE list, and that it will be shrinking as quickly as humanly possible.

The announcement also allowed for the possibility of more books, since no one can be certain that there are not undiscovered swapped books out there:

"If you have any questions, or if you believe you have a tampered book that is not on our list, please reach out to us at ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com."

I suspect that the list will be "fluid" in both directions. CGC did not say it was an exhaustive list.

Cool. So I guess this time that we are in agreement that comiclink couldn't possibly know that the list will slowly dwindle down from what it is now.

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 6:55 PM, Mdesimone said:

I purchased the asm 129 for 1600 back in 2019, I proved it was an 8.0 swapped into a 9.0 case. The 8.0 in todays market is worth more then what I paid. I’m better off cracking pressing and re submit 

Do it.  And let us know what all might be missing on the inside.

[sledgehammer]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:54 PM, COMICLINK said:

I hope that they will remove others off the list that I've alerted them to already.

 

Can you expound on this a bit?

Obviously, you're not going to give any info on who listed the two books that I noted to you yesterday were on the list, and listed on your site.

I wouldn't argue that you should. Sure, it would be nice to know the general area he is from. Sure, it would be nice to know if you've read the thread, and seen that there are connections that have been sent to CGC Mike that could almost certainly tie this to the Forest Hills area.

But have you had some conversation with CGC on why these books are all on the list, and why do you think that you're able to say that they should come off?

Enough to say that you think that they should come off the list?

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:13 PM, Buzzetta said:

Anyone else go through the list and cross check it with their registry books or am I the only one? 

All good for now here. 

Yes.  I checked it against all my DC and Independents... I'm good.

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:17 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

That announcement should be added to Mike's original announcement post so people don't have to keep asking for it. 

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/3/2024 at 9:47 PM, BrashL said:

Another interesting detail:

"related to the incident involving an individual tampering with CGC Comics holders."

So is this confirmation that this was not an inside job and was in fact someone opening and resealing slabs? If that's the case, what was the method for determining the list? Is this every book he ever submitted, or just reholdering? What about books that he may have sold directly without reholdering (that were sealed up well enough to avoid detection), how do we account for those without a name?

I don't think that response means there wasn't an inside man.  Nor does it mean there was.  It just states tampering.   They aren't going to tell us if there was an inside man if everyone is satisfied with this response.

[Mdesimone]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:49 AM, Sigur Ros said:

Do it.  And let us know what all might be missing on the inside.

The original book was a universal blue, it’s packed up and going today

[wiparker824]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:35 PM, Yorick said:

It'd be a bummer to have won one of those dream 9.8's, find out it's not really a 9.8, have CGC reimburse your purchase price, and then have to go track down another 9.8 at possibly a much higher cost.  If I had one of those books, I'd want CGC to obtain a real 9.8 for me.  Forget the money.

All depends on when you bought. If you bought at the pandemic peak you probably prefer the money if they are reimbursing at the price paid, buy another 9.8 for less money and keep the difference in cash. If you bought before the pandemic then, yeah, even if they reimburse the price paid that still sucks for that individual.
 

I’m not sure how they plan to reimburse but the only way for them to avoid this problem entirely is if they agree to pay the purchase price if you have a proof of sale OR the current FMV, whichever is higher. In that case nobody would be screwed over. But I guess we will have to wait to see what they do.

[pdags]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:21 AM, LordRahl said:

More than likely that is on advice from their lawyers.

This is tricky...  If I've been scammed the only * evidence * I have is the book/slab itself.  If I send that into CGC for review and possibly a re-holder, I no longer have the evidence.  CGC needs to inform people that they are working with the FBI, otherwise they may tampering with individual's evidence and ability to personally prosecute.  

I don't know what legal advice CGC is getting, but individuals of very high valued books should consider getting their own legal consultation before shipping their books off to CGC; who may or may not be working with the FBI (or equivalent).

IMHO, these books should be sent first and foremost to the FBI for criminal prosecution, not CGC for re-holdering.

Edited January 4 by pdags

[RonS2112]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:33 AM, gmasstermcd said:

I would even say arguably no one really cares if a 9.8 doesn't have a graders note, but a 9.6 that looks like a 9.8 not having notes is the worst. 

Well, yeah.....and at the risk of stating the obvious, parsing the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 should be a pretty exact science and therefore should ALWAYS have notes associated.

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:35 AM, pdags said:

This is tricky...  If I've been scammed the only * evidence * I have is the book/slab itself.  If I send that into CGC for review and possibly a re-holder, I no longer have the evidence.  CGC needs to inform people that they are working with the FBI, otherwise they may tampering with individuals evidence and ability to personally prosecute.

I don't know what legal advice CGC is getting, but individuals of very high valued books should consider getting their own legal consultation before shipping their books off to CGC; who may or may not be working with the FBI (or equivalent).

Even if CGC regrades and reholders your book you’re still going to get your “evidence” back, they’re going to send it slabbed back to you. They’re not going to slip in a Hulk 181 with a MVS and destroy your evidence. If the fear is they would simply reslab the book without checking it, or check it and purposely still put it in with the wrong label well, you’d still get your evidence back if you want to crack it yourself when they send it to you. Even so, I think that’s a bit far fetched. If they did that and were caught it would spiral this entire thing to a much much worse place than it already is for them. 

[COMICLINK]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:16 AM, gmasstermcd said:

Inside job might explain why there is such a huge percentage of books on the list with graders notes. Maybe it was a precaution in case someone noticed you could point to the notes and say ya look there was indication of some flaws on these 9.8s

 

On 1/4/2024 at 12:13 AM, comeaux said:

CGC  released this list so they should obviously know who the scammer(s) are, why not release the name(s) to protect the community? 

Inside job 

 

No, this was not an inside job.

[lostboys]

I dont like the way this is going down.

 

CGC asking for the books back and promising to make the scammed whole doesnt seem like a fair deal for the scammed.

 

There should be MASSIVE credits involved as well.

 

Folks who have scammed books in their collection must be dealing with a lot of stress right now.

 

I dont think sending the books back to the company that failed them in the first place is gonna brighten up their day much.

 

 

[namisgr]

On 1/4/2024 at 1:57 AM, szav said:

Detailed and surprisingly extensive graders notes on 9.8s seems to be a new thing, so it may not mean anything in this case.  Hope this 9.8 with multiple defects doesn't end up on "The List"!

It's too well known for shenanigans to escape the attention of the hobby.  It's well known, for instance, that the book was previously graded 9.6, with high resolution scans available from the Heritage archives.  Consequently, to get the 9.8 label the book was re-graded, and the grader's notes for the 9.6 version are no longer available in the CGC database.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/silver-age-1956-1969-/superhero/the-amazing-spider-man-1-curator-pedigree-marvel-1963-cgc-nm-96-white-pages/a/7141-91233.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

But yes, it is weird that books recently graded 9.8 are suddenly showing up with grader's notes describing wear, when they predominantly weren't in the past.  The Curator ASM #1 with its new label and grade has the following noted: Spine small stress lines, very light wear bottom of spine, very light wear top of spine

Edited January 4 by namisgr

[CGC Mike]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:08 AM, Sigur Ros said:

On 1/3/2024 at 9:17 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

That announcement should be added to Mike's original announcement post so people don't have to keep asking for it. 

I have added the entire announcement to the pinned thread in comics general, and the announcement thread.