ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:00 AM, pdags said:

Actually, I did work for government (not federal) and in my past job I worked with the FBI on multiple occasions.  They were always very responsive and only *recommended* we didn't tell people we were working with them.  To be fair, I worked in a completely different industry which had ties to national infrastructure and wouldn't expect as much responsiveness from them as in the comic book industry.

 

 

 

So you seem to have some idea of how long this could take, assuming the FBI even decided to prosecute AND your advice to the owners is to just send their books in and wait for what could be years? Wild!!! I assume you would be the first one to send in a $10K+ book and just wait years in limbo while the process plays out 

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:06 AM, agamoto said:

There are other sources out there, like worthpoint.com, where I, and others, many hundreds of ads from the seller, across multiple accounts, going back to 2006. Kinda thought that was common knowledge in this thread already, but I don't begrudge you if you haven't looked at all 260 pages!

Indeed I have not but I did learn something useful today so thank you for that!

[Matt1982]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:00 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

Anyone who thinks the FBI has or will be investigating anything anytime soon and will be forthcoming and transparent are wildly optimistic about how the world actually works. There’s 200 billion dollars in fraudulent PPE loans to track down first, the numbers and people affected in the CGC fraud don’t begin to hit their radar.  Taxpayers come before discretionary spending on luxury items like comic books. You’d have to add 2 or 3 zeroes to this to even get a return phone call. 

This is just not correct. Absolutely wrong.

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:50 AM, Matt1982 said:

CGC has the list of all books associated with that user, and has given that information to the FBI. The FBI is extremely likely already working with CLink, CConnect, Ebay, Heritage, etc. (via cooperation and/or subpoena) to track those books to their final destination. Then if the FBI wants to do so, they'll contact the current or most-recent owners and track the books down. People should calm down and trust that if you got a hold of one of these books, you'll hear from someone. The FBI will do their job, and others will very likely cooperate. Then all the details will become public when there's an indictment, information or other public action taken by the FBI. The agents at the FBI are good at their jobs and work hard to limit the victims of a scheme like this one, so cooperation by the above vendors really helps them do their job quickly.

There is zero indication any of this is true. CGC hasn't indicated they are cooperating with any law enforcement agency, local or federal. 

On 1/4/2024 at 9:13 AM, Matt1982 said:

This is absolutely correct. When people send their books to CGC, they will be turned over to the FBI, who will crack and review them. If they’re not doctored, they’ll be returned to CGC. If they have been doctored, the FBI will keep them as evidence and CGC will pay the owner - presumably/hopefully the replacement cost of the book the person thought they bought.

Where are you getting this information from? 

[BrashL]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:53 AM, comeaux said:

The FBI will not be involved with this in any manner whatsoever 

This is the right take unfortunately. Let’s think about this a second. What was his crime against buyers?  He sold them a book that was certified as a certain grade by CGC. He delivered that book.  If I sell someone a 9.8 that everyone else thinks should have been a 9.4 did I rip anyone off? He exploited CGCs lax QC and the case itself, but none of the comics were counterfeits, they just weren’t what CGC said they were. 

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:10 AM, LordRahl said:

So you seem to have some idea of how long this could take, assuming the FBI even decided to prosecute AND your advice to the owners is to just send their books in and wait for what could be years? Wild!!! I assume you would be the first one to send in a $10K+ book and just wait years in limbo while the process plays out 

FBI doesn't prosecute, they investigate. Correct me if I'm reading you wrong here, but you're saying that the Feds shouldn't get involved, and CGC should just make everything right so that no one has to have a valuable book up in the air for too long? How is that going to bring any justice here? I've been told that previous major fraud cases in the past, ie. Dupcak, Ewert, were also handled internally, and neither of those folks faced any sort of criminal or civil punishment for what happened. Anyone here know the history behind that? 

[BrashL]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:13 AM, Matt1982 said:

This is absolutely correct. When people send their books to CGC, they will be turned over to the FBI, who will crack and review them. If they’re not doctored, they’ll be returned to CGC. If they have been doctored, the FBI will keep them as evidence and CGC will pay the owner - presumably/hopefully the replacement cost of the book the person thought they bought.

This is a bizarre take. The FBI is gonna…what? Send them to the comics grading division to review?  This FBI thing is a fantasy. Focus needs to be on CGC and how they will make sure this never happens again and can account for any improperly certified books. This isn’t CSI, law enforcement isnt going to fix this.

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:27 AM, agamoto said:

FBI doesn't prosecute, they investigate. Correct me if I'm reading you wrong here, but you're saying that the Feds shouldn't get involved, and CGC should just make everything right so that no one has to have a valuable book up in the air for too long? How is that going to bring any justice here? I've been told that previous major fraud cases in the past, ie. Dupcak, Ewert, were also handled internally, and neither of those folks faced any sort of criminal or civil punishment for what happened. Anyone here know the history behind that? 

No, no, not at all. The poster I was responding to was suggesting that the owners of the tainted books not take up CGC on their review and recertify option but rather send the books in as "evidence" for the prosecution. In which case those books would be stuck in limbo while the process of investigating, indicting and prosecuting plays out. That would take likely years with the owners not having either the book or the money for the book while they wait for everything to play out. I'm just saying that no one will sign up for that and it's a terrible suggestion.

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:22 AM, BrashL said:

This is the right take unfortunately. Let’s think about this a second. What was his crime against buyers?  He sold them a book that was certified as a certain grade by CGC. He delivered that book.  If I sell someone a 9.8 that everyone else thinks should have been a 9.4 did I rip anyone off? He exploited CGCs lax QC and the case itself, but none of the comics were counterfeits, they just weren’t what CGC said they were. 

What about books that didn't go through CGC for a reholder and were just swapped out? I'm not sure it's been proven that this happened and if not, it's entirely possible that only reholdered books were swapped but I wouldn't bet on it.

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:34 AM, LordRahl said:

No, no, not at all. The poster I was responding to was suggesting that the owners of the tainted books not take up CGC on their review and recertify option but rather send the books in as "evidence" for the prosecution. In which case those books would be stuck in limbo while the process of investigating, indicting and prosecuting plays out. That would take likely years with the owners not having either the book or the money for the book while they wait for everything to play out. I'm just saying that no one will sign up for that and it's a terrible suggestion.

Ah, gotcha... Yeah, I don't think anyone should be sending anything anywhere unless a law enforcement agent instructs them to do so. The photographic evidence may be sufficient enough. Sending potential evidence in to CGC, so they can crack, regrade and return and/or return and compensate sounds a lot like something any authoritative investigating body would not recommend either though. Which is why I'd like to know, definitively, whether they are being assisted in their investigation by the FBI or not. They could say they are if they were, but they certainly wouldn't want to say they were if they actually weren't. 

[Matt1982]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:20 AM, agamoto said:

There is zero indication any of this is true. CGC hasn't indicated they are cooperating with any law enforcement agency, local or federal. 

Where are you getting this information from? 

Here's what I base my statement on that the FBI will be (likely already is) involved - from CGC's statement: In addition to the initiatives described above and as previously reported, we have also retained a leading private investigative service and outside counsel to conduct a comprehensive review of this incident and our processes, and to help ensure that this individual is held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

Admittedly, the rest of what I've written is speculation based on my experience because performing investigations like the one that CGC says it has undertaken, and cooperating with law enforcement like the FBI, is what I do for a living. So I should be clear that I haven't been given any inside information, but I'm writing what I would expect to happen based on my experience doing this.

My statement that CGC will turn the books over to the FBI is because the FBI will need to preserve the chain of custody since the books are evidence, and if CGC cracks the books then it could taint the chain of custody and render the books unhelpful in a case against whoever did this. It's also based on my experience that all the online marketing of these books, and the use of the USPS and other carriers to deliver books that are sold, makes it a federal crime. And in my experience and opinion it's absolutely a federal crime. This person didn't "exploit a loophole". They knowingly and intentionally used false pretenses to turn less-valuable books into more-valuable books, and then marketed them as those more-valuable books - which in reality they were not. This is all wire fraud, and a lot of it. Each book is its own crime, and it's a serious matter.

Edited January 4 by Matt1982

[ArcherC]

@Get Marwood & I ... No!!!! Stop advertising ... I had a 1 in 93 shot until this!!!!

[shadroch]

There are a number of cases where coin companies sold vastly over graded coins for ridiculous amounts to mostly the elderly.  Justice was swift.

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:41 AM, Matt1982 said:

Here's what I base my statement on that the FBI will be (likely already is) involved - from CGC's statement: In addition to the initiatives described above and as previously reported, we have also retained a leading private investigative service and outside counsel to conduct a comprehensive review of this incident and our processes, and to help ensure that this individual is held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

Admittedly, the rest of what I've written is speculation based on my experience because performing investigations like the one that CGC says it has undertaken, and cooperating with law enforcement like the FBI, is what I do for a living. So I should be clear that I haven't been given any inside information, but I'm writing what I would expect to happen based on my experience doing this.

My statement that CGC will turn the books over to the FBI is because the FBI will need to preserve the chain of custody since the books are evidence, and if CGC cracks the books then it could taint the chain of custody and render the books unhelpful in a case against whoever did this. It's also based on my experience that all the online marketing of these books, and the use of the USPS and other carriers to deliver books that are sold, makes it a federal crime. And in my experience and opinion it's absolutely a federal crime. This person didn't "exploit a loophole". They knowingly and intentionally used false pretenses to turn less-valuable books into more-valuable books, and then marketed them as those more-valuable books - which in reality they were not. This is all wire fraud, and a lot of it. Each book is its own crime, and it's a serious matter.

The statement they make about extent of the law sounds great on paper, but what they are asking folks to do and what they've announced plans to do with any books they deem affected seems to me to be counter to what any criminal investigation would require to bring anyone to justice. 

[Matt1982]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:53 AM, agamoto said:

The statement they make about extent of the law sounds great on paper, but what they are asking folks to do and what they've announced plans to do with any books they deem affected seems to me to be counter to what any criminal investigation would require to bring anyone to justice. 

They’re asking anyone affected to send in their books. And they’ve said they’ll “compensate” those affected by a failure in their services. They haven’t said anything contrary to cooperating with an investigation by law enforcement.

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:53 AM, shadroch said:

There are a number of cases where coin companies sold vastly over graded coins for ridiculous amounts to mostly the elderly.  Justice was swift.

Today, crypto scams are all the rage when it comes to duping seniors, but I do remember something like that when it came to coins.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/boiler-room-operator-sentenced-20-years-prison-scamming-millions-dollars-elderly-coin

[agamoto]

I found a similar parallel to his case involving NGC and apparent case swapping. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11312/coin-tampering-case/

[CJ Design]

uh oh...sorry

 

 

Edited January 4 by CJ Design

[wiparker824]

Edited January 4 by wiparker824

[agamoto]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:05 AM, agamoto said:

I found a similar parallel to his case involving NGC and apparent case swapping. 

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11312/coin-tampering-case/

Wow, the story of Mr. Albright gets pretty weird. 

https://rbj.net/2002/03/01/online-or-off-caveat-emptor-is-the-golden-rule/

That's a story from 20 years ago too. Wow. Leopards apparently don't change their spots.