ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 1/9/2024 at 9:44 PM, mrd160 said:

I actually subscribed to gocollect for this alone….good for them, want to support 

Tbh when I saw the post on Facebook and I posted here, and it shocked me that I had not seen a post from gpaanalysis, which may be preferred for some...

I wondered that back when someone mentioned Weatherpoint or pirate something and or etc 

It just seemed weird tbh that in all this I hardly heard the site gpaanalysis.

Shocking given I thought they were preferred, so kudos to you!

Edited January 10 by ADAMANTIUM

[gpanalysis]

On 1/10/2024 at 2:51 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Tbh when I saw the post on Facebook and I posted here, and it shocked me that I had not seen a post from gpaanalysis, which may be preferred for some...

I wondered that back when someone mentioned Weatherpoint or pirate something and or etc 

It just seemed weird tbh that in all this I hardly heard the site gpaanalysis.

Shocking given I thought they were preferred, so kudos to you!

What were you looking for us to say? This is a slab tampering and slab processing issue. The fact is without GPAnalysis this would not have been as easily discovered - we've been recording CGC certification numbers against sales for more than two decades, and we also track those certs across historical sales. We also track and identify a number of details that have allowed collectors to see this originally identified as Newsstand book move to a Newsstand/MJ insert designation and delve further into what was going on.

We've supplied data to CGC with respects to this situation, and previously with (the identification of trimmed books sold through Ewert). 

We also spend time checking previous sales data and, as best we can, remove erroneous sales and identify relisted books. Unless these current books under investigation need to be adjusted (with respects to sales not having gone through) then we won't be removing anything from GPA. Including any certs that no longer appear in CGC's system.

As a pricing first service, we are also the most complete and accurate information source for CGC books. Our service is used daily by tens of thousands of collectors.

So not really sure what a public statement or email from us at this stage would achieve, especially as information is still being collected and analysed by multiple parties, other than to blow our own horn.

 

Edited January 10 by gpanalysis

[Lightning55]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:43 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Hmmmm I get why people would want that.  Just not sure in reality that would happen.

I get more of the strike-though the old serial number and leave it on the list, but I think where it would get dicey is new making the correctly graded book now have a new list.  Basically creating a new tainted list on books that are now in effect pure again.  See what I mean?

Sorry for leaving you hanging....I had to read 200 posts to catch up.

I do see what you mean, but I am looking at it from the perspective that if a slab is checked, it's ok and gets a new number, that number now has the CGC Seal of Approval. It has been fully reviewed.

We can look it up to see if the grade or label stayed the same. If no change, a false positive. If the grade changes, or goes from blue label to green or purple, it was a scam book. 

Full transparency. Too much to ask?

[agamoto]

On 1/9/2024 at 8:18 PM, gpanalysis said:

What were you looking for us to say? This is a slab tampering and slab processing issue. The fact is without GPAnalysis this would not have been as easily discovered - we've been recording CGC certification numbers against sales for more than two decades, and we also track those certs across historical sales. We also track and identify a number of details that have allowed collectors to see this originally identified as Newsstand book move to a Newsstand/MJ insert designation and delve further into what was going on.

We've supplied data to CGC with respects to this situation, and previously with (the identification of trimmed books sold through Ewert). 

We also spend time checking previous sales data and, as best we can, remove erroneous sales and identify relisted books. Unless these current books under investigation need to be adjusted (with respects to sales not having gone through) then we won't be removing anything from GPA. Including any certs that no longer appear in CGC's system.

As a pricing first service, we are also the most complete and accurate information source for CGC books. Our service is used daily by tens of thousands of collectors.

So not really sure what a public statement or email from us at this stage would achieve, especially as information is still being collected and analysed by multiple parties, other than to blow our own horn.

 

Blessing be upon you, GPA... It wouldn't hurt if you made it easy for us to find a particular cert # in your records instead of having to dig through every year's sales. A simple form that looks up the cert and craps out every known date, amount, and venue so we can lookup pics.

 

[gpanalysis]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:34 PM, agamoto said:

Blessing be upon you, GPA... It wouldn't hurt if you made it easy for us to find a particular cert # in your records instead of having to dig through every year's sales. A simple form that looks up the cert...

 

That's fair enough, and we've been working on this for some time - it's being incorporated into a bigger certification search function so that even certs we don't have recorded in GPA can at least get you to the sales data.

With respects to finding certs now, if you know the cert then you know the title/issue - and the historical data will show you when(if) it was previously sold. I know that's not ideal but you don't necessarily have to go hunting for it once you're in the title/issue data page. That's how the ASM 252 was identified, because once the data was expanded, the historical info was all there to see.

As for images, you have the capability to link back to the auction houses that keep an archive, and that's our preferred way of doing things. But in the end, please be mindful that GPA is a pricing tool, and our resources are mostly applied to that purpose.

[agamoto]

On 1/9/2024 at 5:42 PM, thehumantorch said:

I hope we learn a lot more about this fraud and I hope anyone responsible is charged and punished to the full extent of the law but CGC doesn't have to tell us a thing and they don't have to contact the feds or press charges.  CGC will investigate and listen to this legal council to determine what they need to do to make this go away and repair their reputation.

I've said it before... A prediction: There will be no investigation by the feds. No criminal charges against the perp(s). A trademark or some other form of civil case against "the bad guy". An out of court settlement and the loss of the perp(s) to submit comics to CGC, maybe some cash coughed up or being forced to liquidate to compensate CGC for their loss. 

Then probably lock down any further details with an ironclad NDA. 

Kinda like this... https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11938/

[agamoto]

On 1/9/2024 at 8:43 PM, gpanalysis said:

That's fair enough, and we've been working on this for some time - it's being incorporated into a bigger certification search function so that even certs we don't have recorded in GPA can at least get you to the sales data.

With respects to finding certs now, if you know the cert then you know the title/issue - and the historical data will show you when(if) it was previously sold. I know that's not ideal but you don't necessarily have to go hunting for it once you're in the title/issue data page. That's how the ASM 252 was identified, because once the data was expanded, the historical info was all there to see.

As for images, you have the capability to link back to the auction houses that keep an archive, and that's our preferred way of doing things. But in the end, please be mindful that GPA is a pricing tool, and our resources are mostly applied to that purpose.

I like your tools, just would be nicer to type a cert and see a pretty table of every sale for that cert instead of drilling down through the years sales data and having to eyeball where the cert shows up.

Keep up the good work!

[BrashL]

On 1/9/2024 at 7:16 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Those videos haven’t convinced me that CGC wouldn’t catch the work

I don’t understand this line of thinking. If we know that we have hundreds of slabs from this one person alone that have been opened, and we have videos showing how easy it is to tamper with them, doesn’t Occam’s razor dictate that’s exactly the case?  If not what is your theory?

[BrashL]

So here’s a question for CGC: if GoCollect identifies a slab that was tampered with between sales, will they allow the buyer to send it in for compensation like the current list? Only if it was reholdered?  Isn’t it their responsibility to maintain the integrity of any of their certified comics?  

[Lightning55]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:23 AM, shadroch said:

New York is not part of New England. I'm not sure why it isn't, but it's not.

It was voted out, 6-1.

[Lightning55]

On 1/9/2024 at 12:31 PM, mrd160 said:

it feels like this investigation is very similar to OJ Simpson's investigation of the murders....lol Hope I wrong

More like the OJ car chase...in slow motion.

[Lightning55]

On 1/9/2024 at 1:04 PM, agamoto said:

If federal law enforcement was involved, they would not tell CGC to tell possible victims to contact CGC. At best, they'd recommend contacting CGC, or the authorities. They would not have people send in possible evidence to CGC for them to crack open and examine themselves. They would not want other parties possibly involved, even at arms length, to delete records, photos,  change certification numbers, etc.

Call in the KGB. Solved immediately. 

[Lightning55]

On 1/10/2024 at 12:11 AM, BrashL said:

So here’s a question for CGC: if GoCollect identifies a slab that was tampered with between sales, will they allow the buyer to send it in for compensation like the current list? Only if it was reholdered?  Isn’t it their responsibility to maintain the integrity of any of their certified comics?  

As it says in the original announcement, if you have any questions, you can email ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com.

I would think you could do that to see what options might be available to you, if you believe the slab you have is suspect.

[wombat]

I'm about 30 pages behind. Any word from CGC as to what processes or procedures they actually changed to catch this in the future?

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

On 1/10/2024 at 1:58 AM, wombat said:

I'm about 30 pages behind. Any word from CGC as to what processes or procedures they actually changed to catch this in the future?

To be foolish, again, every submitter may have to promise CGC that the comic book is "genuine."

[KCOComics]

On 1/9/2024 at 11:48 PM, agamoto said:

I've said it before... A prediction: There will be no investigation by the feds. No criminal charges against the perp(s). A trademark or some other form of civil case against "the bad guy". An out of court settlement and the loss of the perp(s) to submit comics to CGC, maybe some cash coughed up or being forced to liquidate to compensate CGC for their loss. 

Then probably lock down any further details with an ironclad NDA. 

Kinda like this... https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/11938/

Unfortunately, that does seem to be a clear precedent.  

While the cost of restatution will likely be crippling - or at least damaging -, it feels like such a slap on the wrist. 

I was thinking about Danny Dupcak getting arrested and serving time (I think??) For the autograph scheme. I'm not sure how fake autographs are any different than manipulating a case. Both are intentional acts to defraud people and in my opinion, both warrant severe punishment. 

 

[bc]

A lot of talk about the FBI in this thread.

I'd be more worried about the IRS if the perp was making the money identified by @comicwiz (possibly 7 figures).

Maybe that's where the SS books come in - a way to offset/hide the profits using legitimate books. Almost like a money laundering/tax evasion operation.

-bc

[wiparker824]

On 1/9/2024 at 10:11 PM, BrashL said:

So here’s a question for CGC: if GoCollect identifies a slab that was tampered with between sales, will they allow the buyer to send it in for compensation like the current list? Only if it was reholdered?  Isn’t it their responsibility to maintain the integrity of any of their certified comics?  

I think if you can prove you have another book this individual tampered with they’ll be willing to listen. That’s not just for GoCollect it’s for anyone capable of ID’ing a book. But I think if you just claim you bought a tampered book that doesn’t necessarily mean CGC is responsible. In the most extreme case let’s say you bought a book that was obviously tampered with and duck taped back together. It’s not on CGC, that’s on you. The problem with these books is that the reholder made them appear completely tamper free, which is on CGC. 

[wiparker824]

I don’t really expect to see any seismic shift in the market because of this. Not yet anyways based on what’s been made public. The thing I’ll be watching is do custom labels actually become less valuable. I can’t speak for everyone but if I was in the market for a 9.8 ASM 300 right now I’d prefer to buy one that has no custom label, preferably slabbed in the past year where images appear on CGC. And I’d be willing to pay quite a bit more for it than that same book with a low cert number and a custom label with no images on CGC. If I was buying a mid grade or low grade book I’d not care as much but those 9.8’s with custom labels are going to be very interesting to see how they do going forward.

[shadroch]

I tried to discover what happened to two Long Island coin dealers caught in similar schemes.  Harold Adamo was arrested for misrepresenting the value of the coins he sold, but I couldn't find the case. 

Tony Romano was a big-time coin dealer when he was arrested, but his case was complicated when he hired an undercover cop to kill the witnesses.