ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[GDN]

Just saw on IG that GoCollect has the Cert Lookup feature working now so you can type in the # and see all sales of that cert with the usual high-res photos!!

[agamoto]

On 1/13/2024 at 3:08 PM, GDN said:

I assume this is a different "Comic Station"

9.9 did talk about all this way back in the beginning on one or more of the Davengers YouTube live shows.

While I remember 9.9 talking about chatting with Zaneglor about the 9.8 252 MJ variant, I don't recall him talking about having any discussion with Zaneglor months before about the 266 X-Men MJ Variant and the claims made by Zaneglor about associations with higher-ups at CGC. So, still news to me. 

It just underlines how I've felt about this from the beginning. When I first got involved in this, The 9.8 252 MJ, a 266 X-Men and a few Hulk 181 switcheroos had been identified. I then found hundreds of more listings going back to 2016 and when I counted the dozens upon dozens of Spider-Man 300 9.8's in play, I mentioned it here in the forums and I knew, right there and then, that the scope of this was massive and something law enforcement needed to get involved in.  

[Domo Arigato]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:18 PM, agamoto said:

Zaneglor may have been totally lying when he talked about collaborating with CGC "higher-ups" on the 266. However, the mere suggestion anyone working for CGC had collaborated with Zaneglor in ANY manner should be automatic grounds to disqualify the impartiality of any internal investigation. 

Prepare to be disappointed even more.  

You've only been here since 2019.....so I'm not sure of your collecting background or how deep your knowledge of CGC history is.....but this wouldn't be the first time something like this has taken place.  I was always a big supporter of CGC and their service.....but make no mistake about it......CGC cares about your wallet.  Period.  And even more so after the corporate warlords took them over several years ago.

I'll try to make this as short as possible to at least give you the gist of what happened, if you (or others) weren't already aware.  Some members in here have a better memory, and can correct me if I'm not remembering properly.

Many years ago, pressing was considered restoration by much of the hobby, and would presumably get you a purple label.  However, someone started to notice something unusual.  For example.....something like a high value golden age book in CGC 9.0 condition selling on Heritage for (let's say) $5,000.  And then, months later, they would notice a copy of the book in CGC 9.6 condition sell on Heritage for $15,000.

The problem was, after comparing scans and a close inspection, it was shown to be the exact same copy in each sale......only the higher graded copy had been noticibly "improved".  This was before pressing was accepted, and before we all knew that CGC couldn't (or wouldn't) detect it and flag it as restoration.

Long story short.....it eventually came out that CGC was offering a secret crack/press/resub service available only to certain "insiders".  These insiders could purchase books with pressable defects.....have CGC press them to a higher grade....and then slab it in a blue holder so these insiders could realize massive profits off of them.

Think how that would make you feel back then.  You send a high grade golden age book to CGC, and they slab it as an 8.5 grade.  Then you realize someone with insider knowledge bought your book....sent it back to CGC so they could press and slab it as a 9.4, and then resell it for 3 to 5 times as much (or more) that you got for it.

After many examples of this happening were found (by comparing scans....much like what is happening now), CGC finally had to come clean and admit what was happening.  This eventually led to their pressing service becoming public and available to everyone.

 

[comicjel]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:23 PM, comicwiz said:

Fantastic information! - clearly implies that things scaled up as time went on (but I also realize that the "population" of books may also be skewed by time, in the manner that they were identified).

I also would be curious to know what the 4 books that were sold from 2014 through 2016 were? - these would not be custom label reholders I believe. 

 

[sledgehammer]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:28 PM, agamoto said:

While I remember 9.9 talking about chatting with Zaneglor about the 9.8 252 MJ variant, I don't recall him talking about having any discussion with Zaneglor months before about the 266 X-Men MJ Variant and the claims made by Zaneglor about associations with higher-ups at CGC. So, still news to me. 

It just underlines how I've felt about this from the beginning. When I first got involved in this, The 9.8 252 MJ, a 266 X-Men and a few Hulk 181 switcheroos had been identified. I then found hundreds of more listings going back to 2016 and when I counted the dozens upon dozens of Spider-Man 300 9.8's in play, I mentioned it here in the forums and I knew, right there and then, that the scope of this was massive and something law enforcement needed to get involved in.  

he definitely did mention the fact that he had been messaging months before.

The other thing that I found telling, back when I heard him, say that, was that there was a point where he noted that sometimes, the communication seemed very intelligent, and other times it seemed like he was communicating with someone that wasn't quite as intelligent.

[agamoto]

On 1/13/2024 at 3:29 PM, Domo Arigato said:

Prepare to be disappointed even more.  

You've only been here since 2019.....so I'm not sure of your collecting background or how deep your knowledge of CGC history is.....but this wouldn't be the first time something like this has taken place.  I was always a big supporter of CGC and their service.....but make no mistake about it......CGC cares about your wallet.  Period.  And even more so after the corporate warlords took them over several years ago.

I'll try to make this as short as possible to at least give you the gist of what happened, if you (or others) weren't already aware.  Some members in here have a better memory, and can correct me if I'm not remembering properly.

Many years ago, pressing was considered restoration by much of the hobby, and would presumably get you a purple label.  However, someone started to notice something unusual.  For example.....something like a high value golden age book in CGC 9.0 condition selling on Heritage for (let's say) $5,000.  And then, months later, they would notice a copy of the book in CGC 9.6 condition sell on Heritage for $15,000.

The problem was, after comparing scans and a close inspection, it was shown to be the exact same copy in each sale......only the higher graded copy had been noticibly "improved".  This was before pressing was accepted, and before we all knew that CGC couldn't (or wouldn't) detect it and flag it as restoration.

Long story short.....it eventually came out that CGC was offering a secret crack/press/resub service available only to certain "insiders".  These insiders could purchase books with pressable defects.....have CGC press them to a higher grade....and then slab it in a blue holder so these insiders could realize massive profits off of them.

Think how that would make you feel back then.  You send a high grade golden age book to CGC, and they slab it as an 8.5 grade.  Then you realize someone with insider knowledge bought your book....sent it back to CGC so they could press and slab it as a 9.4, and then resell it for 3 to 5 times as much (or more) that you got for it.

After many examples of this happening were found (by comparing scans....much like what is happening now), CGC finally had to come clean and admit what was happening.  This eventually led to their pressing service becoming public and available to everyone.

 

Just incredible... Add it to the list of things that already smell south of old cheese. 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:19 PM, agamoto said:

What part of Zaneglor telling 9.9 Newsstand he has collaborated with higher ups at CGC did you not get?

Did you miss the part where the guy who sold the swapped 9.8 252 MJ variant told the guy who cracked this all open months prior that he has connections with higher ups at CGC, who have collaborated with him on determining book populations?

That's on TOP of everything else we know, the history of scams and scandals at CGC where people walked free w/o charges and what happened last year at NGC under similar circumstances.  

Now, two honest questions for you.

Do you think the public, who has spent hundreds of millions, possibly billions of dollars for the CCG mark of confidence, the mark of assurity on their cherished comics, coins, posters, cards, etc. deserve to know that a fully impartial criminal investigation is underway to ensure those responsible for scamming others are brought to justice, especially if there is even a hint of a possible co-conspirator working for the company?

Do you think the company stating they are having private investigators look over things and have hired outside legal counsel to represent them in the matter is good enough? 

First of all, who cares who he told what to and what he said to them? I've collaborated with the President on Foreign Policy, with Paul McCartney on a song and with Bill Parcells on the NY Giants defense during their Super Bowl win. See? Anyone can say anything...doesn't mean it's true. He lied.

The public doesn't know about this "scandal" at all. 98% of the people who submit comics to CGC don't know about this. Most of them probably wouldn't care, anyway. It doesn't affect their lives as collectors or sellers. How many people can afford to spend $5-20k on a comic book? That number is very small. I was talking to a local collecting friend of mine last night. He has lots of CGC books. Lots. He buys them on eBay and from the local shops. He had no clue about any of this, and none of the local shops do either. The general collecting public doesn't care.

I think that what CGC has told the public is exactly what Blackstone/Blackrock/Blackface's lawyers WANT them to say. No more, no less. They could give a rat's behind what the public wants/needs/demands, ESPECIALLY the faceless vocal rabble on an internet message board.

Do they need to say anything? Nope. As I've said before, the money will continue to roll in as it has before.

This "scandal" will affect none of that.

[comicjel]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:29 PM, Domo Arigato said:

Prepare to be disappointed even more.  

You've only been here since 2019.....so I'm not sure of your collecting background or how deep your knowledge of CGC history is.....but this wouldn't be the first time something like this has taken place.  I was always a big supporter of CGC and their service.....but make no mistake about it......CGC cares about your wallet.  Period.  And even more so after the corporate warlords took them over several years ago.

I'll try to make this as short as possible to at least give you the gist of what happened, if you (or others) weren't already aware.  Some members in here have a better memory, and can correct me if I'm not remembering properly.

Many years ago, pressing was considered restoration by much of the hobby, and would presumably get you a purple label.  However, someone started to notice something unusual.  For example.....something like a high value golden age book in CGC 9.0 condition selling on Heritage for (let's say) $5,000.  And then, months later, they would notice a copy of the book in CGC 9.6 condition sell on Heritage for $15,000.

The problem was, after comparing scans and a close inspection, it was shown to be the exact same copy in each sale......only the higher graded copy had been noticibly "improved".  This was before pressing was accepted, and before we all knew that CGC couldn't (or wouldn't) detect it and flag it as restoration.

Long story short.....it eventually came out that CGC was offering a secret crack/press/resub service available only to certain "insiders".  These insiders could purchase books with pressable defects.....have CGC press them to a higher grade....and then slab it in a blue holder so these insiders could realize massive profits off of them.

Think how that would make you feel back then.  You send a high grade golden age book to CGC, and they slab it as an 8.5 grade.  Then you realize someone with insider knowledge bought your book....sent it back to CGC so they could press and slab it as a 9.4, and then resell it for 3 to 5 times as much (or more) that you got for it.

After many examples of this happening were found (by comparing scans....much like what is happening now), CGC finally had to come clean and admit what was happening.  This eventually led to their pressing service becoming public and available to everyone.

 

I have been collecting for long before EBAY, CGC, etc. (although I am relatively new to these Boards) - I remember that clean (with chemicals) and press was given a purple label, but I always thought press alone was never considered "restoration" - I remember sending nice unrestored books to Matt before his company merged with CGC, and not being concerned that they would get a purple label - maybe this was "after" the time you are describing?? 

[shadroch]

Pressing wasn't considered restoration by CGC, but there was a very vocal part of the hobby who were very anti-pressing. Eventually it was okay to press, but you should disclose it.

Now, just assume everything has been pressed at least once.

[Domo Arigato]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:53 PM, comicjel said:

I have been collecting for long before EBAY, CGC, etc. (although I am relatively new to these Boards) - I remember that clean (with chemicals) and press was given a purple label, but I always thought press alone was never considered "restoration" - I remember sending nice unrestored books to Matt before his company merged with CGC, and not being concerned that they would get a purple label - maybe this was "after" the time you are describing?? 

 This was early in CGC's history, so was almost certainly before the time you are talking about.  At the time, pressing was not accepted like it is now, and before it was even known that CGC could not detect pressing alone on a consistent basis.  There were massive and sustained arguments for a long time on these boards during that time regarding pressing and if it alone should be considered restoration.  It even eventually led to....if I'm remember it correctly....a group called N.O.D.....the Network Of Disclosure.  But, I'm not even going to attempt to go down that rabit hole in this thread.

 

[sledgehammer]

On 1/13/2024 at 5:51 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

First of all, who cares who he told what to and what he said to them? I've collaborated with the President on Foreign Policy, with Paul McCartney on a song and with Bill Parcells on the NY Giants defense during their Super Bowl win. See? Anyone can say anything...doesn't mean it's true. He lied.

The public doesn't know about this "scandal" at all. 98% of the people who submit comics to CGC don't know about this. Most of them probably wouldn't care, anyway. It doesn't affect their lives as collectors or sellers. How many people can afford to spend $5-20k on a comic book? That number is very small. I was talking to a local collecting friend of mine last night. He has lots of CGC books. Lots. He buys them on eBay and from the local shops. He had no clue about any of this, and none of the local shops do either. The general collecting public doesn't care.

I think that what CGC has told the public is exactly what Blackstone/Blackrock/Blackface's lawyers WANT them to say. No more, no less. They could give a rat's behind what the public wants/needs/demands, ESPECIALLY the faceless vocal rabble on an internet message board.

Do they need to say anything? Nope. As I've said before, the money will continue to roll in as it has before.

This "scandal" will affect none of that.

if you were so on the target with this, I'm having a hard time figuring out why they would've ever bothered to start including scans of the comic books with the graders notes.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 1/13/2024 at 7:05 PM, sledgehammer said:

if you were so on the target with this, I'm having a hard time figuring out why they would've ever bothered to start including scans of the comic books with the graders notes.

Who knows why they do what they do? The point is that no matter WHAT happens, they will continue to make money hand over fist. They can't fail.

This is a blip. That being said, what WOULD it take for them to actually lose business? No, I'm not talking about the 14 people on this board that will stop submitting for 137 days. I'm talking about something that would actually affect their bottom line.

[Domo Arigato]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:03 PM, shadroch said:

Pressing wasn't considered restoration by CGC, but there was a very vocal part of the hobby who were very anti-pressing. Eventually it was okay to press, but you should disclose it.

Now, just assume everything has been pressed at least once.

My memory (and others can correct me if I'm wrong)....is that early on CGC didn't really have an official stance on it.  I think (at one time) they said they would only flag it as restoration if they could determine for certain that a book had been pressed.  Then, they eventually admitted that they couldn't determine pressing consistently and, because of that, it was not going to be considered restoration.  That's when the floodgates really opened.

 

[comicjel]

On 1/13/2024 at 7:03 PM, shadroch said:

Pressing wasn't considered restoration by CGC, but there was a very vocal part of the hobby who were very anti-pressing. Eventually it was okay to press, but you should disclose it.

Now, just assume everything has been pressed at least once.

Exactly! - that is how I remember it.

Further, I have waffled through the years about pressing - I have landed on... try to buy books that do not "look" pressed to me, but assume everything has been pressed. 

 

[sledgehammer]

I came across two ASM 129's recently. One of them was a 9.6 and the other one was a 9.8.

In each of their graders notes, it says slight crushing of spine. 

 

[Domo Arigato]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:10 PM, comicjel said:

Exactly! - that is how I remember it.

Further, I have waffled through the years about pressing - I have landed on... try to buy books that do not "look" pressed to me, but assume everything has been pressed. 

 

That's how it was eventually.....but there was a time before that where it wasn't so clear cut.

 

[sledgehammer]

On 1/13/2024 at 6:09 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Who knows why they do what they do?

I thought for a second that maybe you did.

[agamoto]

On 1/13/2024 at 3:51 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

First of all, who cares who he told what to and what he said to them? I've collaborated with the President on Foreign Policy, with Paul McCartney on a song and with Bill Parcells on the NY Giants defense during their Super Bowl win. See? Anyone can say anything...doesn't mean it's true. He lied.

Lol, what? This isn't just anybody saying anything... JFC! This is a statement made by the person who sold the 252 9.8 ASM and who is implicated in the sale of a million bucks worth of other suspect books talking about having someone he collaborates with high up on the inside of the company who you think is perfectly within bounds to self-investigate amidst what should be a massive interstate fraud investigation. 

On 1/13/2024 at 3:51 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

The public doesn't know about this "scandal" at all. 98% of the people who submit comics to CGC don't know about this. Most of them probably wouldn't care, anyway. It doesn't affect their lives as collectors or sellers. How many people can afford to spend $5-20k on a comic book? That number is very small. I was talking to a local collecting friend of mine last night. He has lots of CGC books. Lots. He buys them on eBay and from the local shops. He had no clue about any of this, and none of the local shops do either. The general collecting public doesn't care.

Oh, I see. So as long as 98% are kept in the dark, then it's perfectly fine and we don't have to worry about any of it. Could you possibly come up with a lamer excuse for why this matter shouldn't be investigated by the feds? 

On 1/13/2024 at 3:51 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

I think that what CGC has told the public is exactly what Blackstone/Blackrock/Blackface's lawyers WANT them to say. No more, no less. They could give a rat's behind what the public wants/needs/demands, ESPECIALLY the faceless vocal rabble on an internet message board.

Do they need to say anything? Nope. As I've said before, the money will continue to roll in as it has before.

This "scandal" will affect none of that.

Ok, cool, you keep believing that. I'll just ignore your future comments. 

[comicjel]

On 1/13/2024 at 7:10 PM, sledgehammer said:

I came across two ASM 129's recently. One of them was a 9.6 and the other one was a 9.8.

In each of their graders notes, it says slight crushing of spine. 

 

Would be ironic if those first passed through CCS before being graded

[comicwiz]

On 1/13/2024 at 7:10 PM, sledgehammer said:

graders notes says slight crushing of s̶p̶i̶n̶e̶  souls.

Fixed that for you