ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[THE_BEYONDER]

[Microchip]

On 1/15/2024 at 1:08 AM, wiparker824 said:

On 1/14/2024 at 5:51 PM, Microchip said:

Hi @gpanalysis I've just contacted you via your website contact function.

 

Are you guys going to identify the CGC Slab tampering list of books within the database?  

Your website helped identify the fraud initially, what steps will you be taking in response to the fraud committed on the CGC community?

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

They posted a response on pg. 332 of this thread.

The question of Tampered slabs still stands.   

Will these be removed, identified, or nothing done in response to the list of numbers released by CGC, by @gpanalysis on the website.

[MAR1979]

On 1/14/2024 at 7:55 PM, Microchip said:

The question of Tampered slabs still stands.   

Will these be removed, identified, or nothing done in response to the list of numbers released by CGC, by @gpanalysis on the website.

I'm sure Blackstone will do whatever is the least expensive.  Possibly not even that now as this thread has fizzled and Social Media has moved on.

Edited January 15 by MAR1979

[Microchip]

On 1/15/2024 at 12:03 PM, MAR1979 said:

I'm sure Blackstone will do whatever is the least expensive.  Possibly not even that now as this thread has fizzled and Social Media has moved on.

I've been impressed with the social media/youtuber community on this.   They've been working well, and synergistically with the information provided here on the boards.   It still seems to be a hot topic.   The last podcast with 9.9newstand raising the point, of whether additional lists of books will be released by CGC, as they continue to sort through this issue.    

It seems there were other's involved, knowingly, and unknowingly.    The depth of this scam isn't fully bottomed out at this point.   

[Lightning55]

On 1/14/2024 at 7:55 PM, Microchip said:

The question of Tampered slabs still stands.   

Will these be removed, identified, or nothing done in response to the list of numbers released by CGC, by @gpanalysis on the website.

CGC is not  compelled in any way to provide any answers to the many questions we all may have. If they do address any concerns, well, good on them.

There is no regulatory agency overseeing the comic collecting industry/hobby. CGC is not a financial institution, subject to SEC rules and regulations. It is a private company, owned by a public company.

CGC has not done anything criminal. A bit negligent or incompetent maybe, on the reholder process, but poor performance is not a crime. There is probably fraud taking place, maybe unwittingly aided by CGC. But CGC is not the source of the fraud, so not the subject of an investigation. The person, or people, swapping out books are the criminals. 

On that criminal level, the parties affected (collectors who lost money due to slab tempering), would be the ones to press charges, to get law enforcement involved, since something tangible was stolen from them - money. Multiple affected parties would have to band together to seek justice and compensation. 

But....has anyone to date lost money?? Those who potentially could have lost money are supposedly being made whole by CGC, so no longer victims. No victims = no crime = no prosecution. 

And as long as CGC keeps up with current compensation, as well as funding new, previously-unknown instances of swapping, this whole affair slowly loses traction, fading away. Could be the entire strategy. 

[MAR1979]

The preceding post was paid for in its entirety by Blackstone.

Edited January 15 by MAR1979

[universal soldier]

As much as a monoply as CGC has, this event without some resolution or confirmation of how they will prevent future events like this will damage their reputation even further. Can they afford to lose 5-15% of their market share? I don't think voldie could handle any more than that without being overwhelmed by the volume.  At least from what I've read and heard...

  maybe CGC sees this as acceptable collateral damage and assumes they can easily recapture that market share. 

[Microchip]

On 1/15/2024 at 1:18 PM, Lightning55 said:

CGC is not  compelled in any way to provide any answers to the many questions we all may have. If they do address any concerns, well, good on them.

There is no regulatory agency overseeing the comic collecting industry/hobby. CGC is not a financial institution, subject to SEC rules and regulations. It is a private company, owned by a public company.

CGC has not done anything criminal. A bit negligent or incompetent maybe, on the reholder process, but poor performance is not a crime. There is probably fraud taking place, maybe unwittingly aided by CGC. But CGC is not the source of the fraud, so not the subject of an investigation. The person, or people, swapping out books are the criminals. 

On that criminal level, the parties affected (collectors who lost money due to slab tempering), would be the ones to press charges, to get law enforcement involved, since something tangible was stolen from them - money. Multiple affected parties would have to band together to seek justice and compensation. 

But....has anyone to date lost money?? Those who potentially could have lost money are supposedly being made whole by CGC, so no longer victims. No victims = no crime = no prosecution. 

And as long as CGC keeps up with current compensation, as well as funding new, previously-unknown instances of swapping, this whole affair slowly loses traction, fading away. Could be the entire strategy. 

My post was to GPAanlysis.

CGC and GPAnalysis need to address this situation.   CGC has already responded, and responded with clear, and strong intention.  They have provided an ongoing commitment to provide remedy to those affected by this criminal fraud.  

GPA data will now be seen as compromised, without providing a public notification on their intention to respond to the situation.

 

 

[wiparker824]

On 1/14/2024 at 5:55 PM, Microchip said:

The question of Tampered slabs still stands.   

Will these be removed, identified, or nothing done in response to the list of numbers released by CGC, by @gpanalysis on the website.

“We also spend time checking previous sales data and, as best we can, remove erroneous sales and identify relisted books. Unless these current books under investigation need to be adjusted (with respects to sales not having gone through) then we won't be removing anything from GPA. Including any certs that no longer appear in CGC's system.”

This is what GPA said in this thread. Not sure what more you’re looking for, but they are telling you they won’t be removed. 

[Microchip]

On 1/15/2024 at 3:03 PM, wiparker824 said:

“We also spend time checking previous sales data and, as best we can, remove erroneous sales and identify relisted books. Unless these current books under investigation need to be adjusted (with respects to sales not having gone through) then we won't be removing anything from GPA. Including any certs that no longer appear in CGC's system.”

This is what GPA said in this thread. Not sure what more you’re looking for, but they are telling you they won’t be removed. 

Was this before or after CGC released the list of affected books?

[wiparker824]

Well after. Again, I recommend reading what they wrote on page 332. Would seem to answer all of your GPA questions. 

[HighGrade]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:52 PM, universal soldier said:

As much as a monoply as CGC has, this event without some resolution or confirmation of how they will prevent future events like this will damage their reputation even further. Can they afford to lose 5-15% of their market share? I don't think voldie could handle any more than that without being overwhelmed by the volume.  At least from what I've read and heard...

  maybe CGC sees this as acceptable collateral damage and assumes they can easily recapture that market share. 

They already said they addressed the issue of how it was done, I think that also shows it was the system, human error, now by adding another set of eyes (senior grader) you eliminate the "not checking the holder fully". You have to assume they didn't use graders to crack and reholder, maybe just said look to see if it's been opened and gave them a protocol to follow, and I'm sure if the person did 10 holder on a shift thy were like UH you need to speed it up. I mean it's a job. Or maybe employee was in on something (all just speculation), or whatever it was, they said they addressed it internally and it's being changed now. For all we know someone was letting some send in books without the outside shell, I mean we do not know, might not ever know but I'm pretty darn sure it was much easier than many think. They reholder busted broken holders, who hasn't sent in a holder with "BOTH" bottom posts busted, the speculation about perfect resealing is weird.

And I will say from past history of the grading industry and worse scandals, they are not going to lose any market share at all, I bet the opposite, I bet they grow the market share out of this.

Been through this before with other hobbies and grading companies, even complete fake card flips/holders but my first time through something like this was way long ago and I too thought it was going to impact everything, heck I thought the card grading company wouldn't recover. Boy was I wrong, and bigger scams hit later and then I knew it would not impact much. I still sell old card flips, no difference, sometimes higher the the new ones, no worries, and yeah CGC will probably add new security features to the current holder even if it wasn't the issue, probably not a new holder though.

Edited January 15 by HighGrade

[Lightning55]

On 1/14/2024 at 10:56 PM, Microchip said:

My post was to GPAanlysis.

CGC and GPAnalysis need to address this situation.   CGC has already responded, and responded with clear, and strong intention.  They have provided an ongoing commitment to provide remedy to those affected by this criminal fraud.  

GPA data will now be seen as compromised, without providing a public notification on their intention to respond to the situation.

 

 

GPA already made a statement, the one you were directed toward. Seemed to cover all aspects of the situation. 

I would think that their system of collecting data is very automated. So bad data is going to enter their database from time to time. Invalid sales data would have to be sorted out and removed. Only they know how efficiently and expeditiously that can be accomplished. 

I'm sure there's a lot of maintenance to keep it as pure as possible. The data is their product, so protecting it is Job 1.

 

[Microchip]

 

On 1/15/2024 at 3:56 PM, Lightning55 said:

GPA already made a statement, the one you were directed toward. Seemed to cover all aspects of the situation. 

I would think that their system of collecting data is very automated. So bad data is going to enter their database from time to time. Invalid sales data would have to be sorted out and removed. Only they know how efficiently and expeditiously that can be accomplished. 

I'm sure there's a lot of maintenance to keep it as pure as possible. The data is their product, so protecting it is Job 1.

 

Apart from GPA repeating themselves, saying they're just a pricing tool, they're explanation was a bit confusing if I use a weak yard stick on their contribution.

On 1/10/2024 at 3:18 PM, gpanalysis said:

We also spend time checking previous sales data and, as best we can, remove erroneous sales and identify relisted books. Unless these current books under investigation need to be adjusted (with respects to sales not having gone through) then we won't be removing anything from GPA. Including any certs that no longer appear in CGC's system.

So CGC will remove go the through all the effort of fixing the books, giving compensation to those affected, and re-grading the books needed.   

And GPA will just leave in cert's that CGC will be deleting from their database.    Automatically, every other CGC database will be updating accordingly..    So that answer sounds problematic from the get go.

We need a follow up @gpanalysis 

 

[Domo Arigato]

Finally found a moment when nobody was in this thread and I could see both numbers.

 

[Gaard]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:18 PM, Lightning55 said:

Those who potentially could have lost money are supposedly being made whole by CGC, so no longer victims.

I'm not so sure about this. @CGC Mike is checking on the answer to the question I asked him. 

 

[wiparker824]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:09 PM, Microchip said:

 

Apart from GPA repeating themselves, saying they're just a pricing tool, they're explanation was a bit confusing if I use a weak yard stick on their contribution.

So CGC will remove go the through all the effort of fixing the books, giving compensation to those affected, and re-grading the books needed.   

And GPA will just leave in cert's that CGC will be deleting from their database.    Automatically, every other CGC database will be updating accordingly..    So that answer sounds problematic from the get go.

We need a follow up @gpanalysis 

 

GPA isn’t a site that logs “certs” to be removing “certs”. They log sales. There’s a big difference. If you crack press and regrade a book and send in the old cert CGC will remove the old cert from the census but every sale of that old cert is still valid. So, there have always been many certs that appear in GPA that don’t appear in CGC’s census and no longer exist in the world. Because again GPA isn’t a site for “certs” and cert verification it is purely a record of sales. So removing sales data is problematic and should not be done just because CGC has removed it from their database. 

Edited January 15 by wiparker824

[Bookery]

On 1/14/2024 at 10:56 PM, Microchip said:

GPA data will now be seen as compromised, without providing a public notification on their intention to respond to the situation.

I may be misunderstanding this.  I guess for tracking specific certification numbers, there may be an issue.  But as for pricing, the fact that the books were fraudulent really doesn't make a difference.  If someone bought a 9.8, but in reality the book inside had been switched for one missing a Marvel stamp, for example, the price being paid still represents what someone wanted to pay for a 9.8, the actual book inside notwithstanding.  Therefore GPA averages for a given period and grade shouldn't be affected.  

[pdags]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:18 PM, Lightning55 said:

so no longer victims.

The people that got scammed will *always* be victims, even if compensated for their loss.

Even if the criminal personally paid everyone back, they still committed crime.

 

Edited January 15 by pdags

[Pantodude]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:05 PM, Microchip said:

Was this before or after CGC released the list of affected books?

FWIW, I can tell you from experience that, at least for several years (beyond that, it was before my experience), GPAnalysis has been promptly removing sales data (after being tipped off of the need) whenever they could confirm the sale had not gone through. Be it eBay, Heritage, etc.  You know all those times in all those threads over the past few years when folks have noted a sale (usually involving expensive keys) that apparently fell through, boardies often flagged those situations for GPA either directly in the thread or by contacting it outside of the boards, and GPA acted.  As its response in this thread is consistent with this longstanding practice, I don't see how GPA could be seen as compromised.  Anyway, I appreciate GPA even more in light of the actual and potential shenanigans addressed in this thread.  

Edited January 15 by Pantodude