ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[comicjel]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:38 PM, justafan said:

The 8.5 and 9.0 appear to be the same copy, but that 9.4 appears to be a completely different book unless it was also micro trimmed at the top cover. Look at how the top cover edge is cutting off the MARVEL title.

If you scroll in on the 8.5 and 9.0 the top that looks like additional cover is actually a shadow - I do not think they have been trimmed (but who knows??)

[sledgehammer]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:11 PM, comicjel said:

On 2/12/2024 at 11:38 AM, justafan said:

The 8.5 and 9.0 appear to be the same copy, but that 9.4 appears to be a completely different book unless it was also micro trimmed at the top cover. Look at how the top cover edge is cutting off the MARVEL title.

If you scroll in on the 8.5 and 9.0 the top that looks like additional cover is actually a shadow - I do not think they have been trimmed (but who knows??)

I looked at all 3 scans on heritage, specifically at the top of the letter "A" (the yellow part of it) in Marvel (due to it's proximity to the top).

All 3 of the books are identical. There is about 1/16th to a 32nd of an inch, between the top of the A, and the top of the cover.

Edited February 12 by sledgehammer

[BrashL]

The fact that you guys are even having this conversation about a million dollar book. What is the point of buying CGC graded comics again?

[comicjel]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:16 PM, sledgehammer said:

I looked at all 3 scans on heritage, specifically at the top of the letter "A" (the yellow part of it) in Marvel (due to it's proximity to the top).

All 3 of the books are identical. There is about 1/16th to a 32nd of an inch, between the top of the A, and the top of the cover.

Funny, I focused on the "A" too! - yes, all 3 looked identical to my eyes.

[sledgehammer]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:43 PM, comicjel said:

Funny, I focused on the "A" too! - yes, all 3 looked identical to my eyes.

Maybe your eyes are even better than mine.

What is going on at the bottom of the spine on the front cover, where it looks like a big chunk is missing?

I'm not hoping that anyone infers that I think that comic is a 9.4.

 

 

[comicjel]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:37 PM, BrashL said:

 

 

On 2/12/2024 at 1:59 PM, sledgehammer said:

Maybe your eyes are even better than mine.

 

 

 

I doubt my eyes are better! - but I think we are saying the same thing... that we don't think that there has been any trimming

Edited February 12 by comicjel

[comicjel]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:37 PM, BrashL said:

The fact that you guys are even having this conversation about a million dollar book. What is the point of buying CGC graded comics again?

Only having the conversation because someone thought the book was trimmed, and I don't think so.

But I hear you... getting harder to defend every day!

 

Edited February 12 by comicjel

[HighGrade]

I think we might be going off the rails and we are in the weeds, this book is not a problem, it's not a scam, or a swap, and the owner can look at the wrinkle and decide if he thinks it's still a 9.4, it is one of the top 2 copies ever.

The Windy City Marvel #1 was in fact not trimmed, the photo is an illusion with the shadow at the top, zoom in and use the high res images, it's obvious. Also it was not color touched, look at the original. And it was and still is a wrinkle even if now it's probably hanging on by threads after the Hulk smashing it. If we saw it in person I know you could still see the roughness of the wrinkle so we can debate all day if it's a 9.4 with that roughness but it's labeled a 9.4 now and that's it.

So it was FACT cleaned like CRAZY a few times, pressed, Pressed..PRESSED until it couldn't be pressed no more, and the only thing that is sad is the original owner did not take part in this huge payday.

Given a half a million of extra money, we ALL would press and clean the freaking life out of this book if we were going to sell it.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:37 PM, BrashL said:

What is the point of buying CGC graded comics again?

CGC exists because of greed. That's it.

[Gaard]

On 2/12/2024 at 1:59 PM, sledgehammer said:

Maybe your eyes are even better than mine.

 

[Chaos_in_Canada]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:38 PM, justafan said:

The 8.5 and 9.0 appear to be the same copy, but that 9.4 appears to be a completely different book unless it was also micro trimmed at the top cover. Look at how the top cover edge is cutting off the MARVEL title.

S-A-M-E comic!

9.0 (from Heritage) & 9.4 (from reddit)

 

[lou_fine]

On 2/11/2024 at 8:56 AM, HighGrade said:

Yeah, pressing the life out of a book and cleaning it like crazy is not technically a scam, I was one of the ones who was against it, but some people made some good points and I converted to accepting it. So yeah we know this goes on and it drove me crazy with coins, the bumps, adding entirely new grades to the scale, money changes everything, big money changes everything and everyone.

Yes, don't we miss the early days of sweet blind innocence when we thought CGC was here just to grade the books and to protect us all from the scourge of restoration inflicted on us by the evil comic book mechanics working in their darkened dungeons.  

Only to find out some five years later that CGC had over time gone and fine tuned monetized their definition of restoration and their undisclosed grading standards, while not even bothering to inform the collectors and marketplace of this critical change until they were forced to on these very boards here.  I guess we should have seen the red flag when Heritage with their checkered history and questionable background in the collectibles field arrived on the comic book scene back in 2002, as per this post from our resident Master Detective boardie himself:  

On 2/6/2024 at 3:41 PM, MasterChief said:

Thanks for tagging me on this. I agree for the most part. Only difference being -- I do believe the disregard for industry accepted restoration standards was intentional and purposeful in order to facilitate James Halperin's “crack-out game” and drive the top-line. The conclusions drawn from the data collected indicate the institutionalization of manipulation began July 4, 2002, with Heritage Signature Auction #803. More than 150 lots were identified as targets of opportunity at an approximate cost of $460K. In as little as three months after #803 closed, Heritage began relisting the very same books sold during that auction. Reholderded with higher grades, they were liquidated with various forms of treatments applied. Unbeknown to the buyers of course. Wish I had more time to go into detail but currently on business travel. Maybe I’ll write a book someday about how a cabal of self-proclaimed, self-interested experts took a cut from the hobby at the expenses of collectors at large.

Sad to say, but it has reached the point today that some former practices that used to be considered to be restoration has now become so ingrained into the grading standards that they have basically become part and parcel of the whole certification process.  

[lou_fine]

On 2/11/2024 at 1:18 PM, grendel013 said:

On 2/11/2024 at 11:13 AM, AbsoluteCarnage said:

One thing's for sure. If someone tries to press that book again, it might end up a smear on the press. Time to shut that down at 9.4.

Maybe one more press? But only if 9.9 pre-screen is available.

Glad to see you have a sense of humor as these are the funny books after all, and it's not good to always take things too seriously.  

Speaking of which, isn't "maximization of potential" just SO yesterday and shouldn't we be thinking ahead of the curve and thinking more about tomorrow.  As such, just imagine a CGC grading world where the CCG ownership group and Blackstone feel they have maximized and pressed all of the potential out of poor overworked and over stressed Matt and given him his well earned and much deserved rewards in greener pastures.  Instead, they now have Jason in his place who has raised the level of grading to an even higher standard with his ground breaking new and next level innovative "Edge Of Perfection" process.  

Although everybody here claims that they just hate trimming or even near invisible micro-trimming of a book, I can just imagine the endless turnaround times at CCS and CGC as everybody rushes in to resubmit their books hoping no longer for only that 9.8 or 9.9, but now happily dreaming about that Perfect 10.0 pre-screen.  

Edited February 13 by lou_fine

[Coverless 9.8]

My advice to those who still trust the process is to just press on!  

[Coverless 9.8]

Marvel Comics #1 from 1939 isn't just getting older!  It's getting better!  

[shadroch]

Eyes on the prize, people.

[BrashL]

On 2/13/2024 at 10:26 AM, shadroch said:

Eyes on the prize, people.

Any word on the new  case or some stickers on the old one or something?

[BuscemasAvengers]

On 2/13/2024 at 11:26 AM, shadroch said:

Eyes on the prize, people.

Agreed. The entity is turning red.

[thehumantorch]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:52 PM, jas1vans said:

Maybe they would want some transparency into how a grading company certifying valuable collectibles can be manipulated in such an efficient manner, hoping the exposure would provide some incentive to prevent future manipulation. A short term monetary setback to protect the value of a large collection of CGC graded books might be worth it to some.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've read, the trimming fiasco ended in a "Now don't you ever do this again."

"Now don't you ever do this again, pinky promise"

[sledgehammer]

i've just seen an indication, that if CGC finds that a book has been tampered with, that is not currently on the list, and even though there are other books on that submission, that are on the list, CGC will be expecting you to pay for having that book regraded.

@CGC Mike

Could you confirm this, Mike?

at what point is CGC going to explain, why exactly it is only books that were reholdered, that CGC feels that it is responsible for?

is this being placed squarely on former employees of the company? it's been documented, that books have been switched into slabs that have certification numbers that are not on the list. What exactly is the distinction, between those swaps, and the swaps that are on the list?

This sounds pretty insane to me.