ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ramithard]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:36 AM, sledgehammer said:

I think that there had to be some impetus for them deciding last year to start putting scans in the grader's notes.

Anyone that is buying comics that is not searching GPA for transaction history, and reviewing the other books in the submission that includes a certification number they have interest in, is out of their minds.

Of course, how much does even that help, when a submission from 2019, with a FF #2 on the list, has been confirmed by CGC to have been screwed with?

Here is another book from that submission https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1393412001/

Why would I possibly consider buying that comic, when 2 of the books in that submission were put on the list?

 

Just wondering how you look up what other books were submitted in the same order as ones that are tainted?  Don't know how to search that.....thought only the submitter got that info.............. 

[sledgehammer]

On 2/14/2024 at 10:11 AM, ramithard said:

 

Just wondering how you look up what other books were submitted in the same order as ones that are tainted?  Don't know how to search that.....thought only the submitter got that info.............. 

the last 3 numbers. So if the book  001 is in it, 002, etc, until results stop.

maybe 015 will be the last one in the submission.

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:43 AM, BrashL said:

This only makes sense if your top priority is making sure CGC wins its court cases. As a collector I could care less, what I want is a complete list of affected books, how the books were tampered with, and a new case and transparent process that we can trust again. Punishing one bad actor frankly does very little at this point, that cat is out of the bag.

Perhaps you couldn't care less, but its standard practice that companies don't publicly discuss details of ongoing litigation. This is Communications 101. CGC's winning its court cases is in the direct interest of the customers. It's not about vengeance or recovering money, it's about protecting their brand and the integrity of their service, which benefits the customers. Secondly, the information you demand is likely unknown at this time. Do you want correct information, or just any information for the sake of appeasal? I do agree that the information you seek should be shared publicly, but that's after the conclusion of litigation. 

[sledgehammer]

On 2/14/2024 at 10:15 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

Perhaps you couldn't care less, but its standard practice that companies don't publicly discuss details of ongoing litigation. This is Communications 101. CGC's winning its court cases is in the direct interest of the customers. It's not about vengeance or recovering money, it's about protecting their brand and the integrity of their service, which benefits the customers. Secondly, the information you demand is likely unknown at this time. Do you want correct information, or just any information for the sake of appeasal? I do agree that the information you seek should be shared publicly, but that's after the conclusion of litigation. 

One of the first things out of Matt's mouth was "I can't really comment on that as it is a pending investigation."

I think it's way too early to think anything he said will impact CGC that much.

[sledgehammer]

Once again.

Not on the list.

Clearly a Zanello submission. List books are in the same submission, from last year.

Scan of book clearly not a 9.8 still there

GRADE IS GONE from notes, and grade date changed to January 23, 2024.

Clearly then not a reholder, right?  https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4329914003/

Buyers beware.

 

[Broke as a Joke]

What a sad state of affairs.  It's pretty awful that a comic book buyer of CGC books needs a "carfax report" before buying now.  

[paqart]

On 2/14/2024 at 2:54 AM, Silver Surfer said:

But by the time they get around to dealing with it, if they even bothered,  it would take forever. And then you still have the problem of evidence discovery becoming public and that could hurt the company. If it gets to that point nothing material will happen. 

Not CGC. The victims of the fraud go directly to law enforcement. There is no reason for any of them to wait on CGC.

[Brock]

On 2/14/2024 at 11:26 AM, Broke as a Joke said:

 a comic book buyer of CGC books needs a "carfax report" before buying now.  

Forget CVA stickers - here's a business opportunity for someone. @comicwiz let me know if you're looking for venture capital! 

[comicwiz]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:11 PM, Brock said:

On 2/14/2024 at 11:26 AM, Broke as a Joke said:

 a comic book buyer of CGC books needs a "carfax report" before buying now.  

here's a business opportunity for someone. @comicwiz let me know if you're looking for venture capital! 

I can do the report side of things quite easily through ComicVerify already. What we need here is an advance warning system. I have some ideas on how this can be done, and the approach to use to avert this type of thing from ever happening unnoticed again. I built something similar for the insurance industry 16 years ago when they needed to track dead VIN's that were being revived for criminal activities.

Edited February 18 by comicwiz

[topcat54]

so what happened to the list of 2000 books and the boards only got 350 list

Paul Lesko

@Paul_Lesko

·

Feb 4

So, what'd the defendants allegedly do? CGC alleges Zanello and Riva submitted 2000+ comic books to CGC under Zanello’s account and through a "dealer" account for Comic Book Station/Comic Book Underground that Zanello improperly got permission to use from that account owner.

[comicjel]

On 2/14/2024 at 11:23 AM, sledgehammer said:

Once again.

Not on the list.

Clearly a Zanello submission. List books are in the same submission, from last year.

Scan of book clearly not a 9.8 still there

GRADE IS GONE from notes, and grade date changed to January 23, 2024.

Clearly then not a reholder, right?  https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4329914003/

Buyers beware.

 

This book appears to have been sold prior to the scam being uncovered - I suspect that the purchaser sent it to get checked by CGC (even though not on the "list") to be safe.

Might explain why it now has no grade?? - but that is just a guess. 

That book does look like it could be a legit 9.8 to me (at least compared to other books he received 9.8s on) - but who knows if it remained the same book by the time CGC saw it again (and who knows if it is complete inside??)

Edited February 14 by comicjel

[sledgehammer]

On 2/14/2024 at 12:29 PM, comicjel said:

This book appears to have been sold prior to the scam being uncovered - I suspect that the purchaser sent it to get checked by CGC (even though not on the "list") to be safe.

Might explain why it now has no grade?? - but that is just a guess. 

I believe you are correct.

[lou_fine]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:49 AM, comicjel said:

On 2/14/2024 at 7:36 AM, sledgehammer said:

I think that there had to be some impetus for them deciding last year to start putting scans in the grader's notes.

... and remember that they also added a note under the "verify" scan to contact them if you suspect counterfeiting (or something to that effect) at the same time.

Clearly they discovered something back then!

Exactly and my thinking also, as CGC is clearly not known for providing a service for free to their customers that they normally collect a fee on.  

This, plus the fact that their never ending solicitations for Signature signings that seemingly used to come out on an almost weekly basis came to a screeching halt.   

Edited February 14 by lou_fine

[CGC Mike]

On 2/13/2024 at 2:15 PM, sledgehammer said:

i've just seen an indication, that if CGC finds that a book has been tampered with, that is not currently on the list, and even though there are other books on that submission, that are on the list, CGC will be expecting you to pay for having that book regraded.

@CGC Mike

Could you confirm this, Mike?

at what point is CGC going to explain, why exactly it is only books that were reholdered, that CGC feels that it is responsible for?

Unfortunately, counterfeit – and, relatedly, tampered – products have become an issue that many companies and consumers now face. Bad actors seek illegitimate profits by creating knockoffs of well-known, trusted and valuable brands. CGC is one of these targets, and we will take aggressive action to combat counterfeiters and other fraudsters, including through lawsuits, security enhancements and awareness campaigns. We cannot, however, provide compensation to people who purchase counterfeit or tampered products. This would, in effect, render the counterfeit or tampered products as valuable as the real deal, despite CGC having absolutely no involvement in their production.

 The 350 books identified by CGC on 1/3/24 are in a different category because they were submitted to CGC for reholder after being tampered with, and we did not detect the tampering at the time.

 We still want to know about other counterfeit or tampered with CGC holders because we will aggressively pursue these bad actors to the fullest extent of the law. We are committed to taking the appropriate steps to prevent counterfeiting (and tampering), and we will take legal action against those who attempt it.

 CCG strongly advises prospective buyers to do their research and buy from reputable sources. CGC offers the free Verify CGC Certification tool on its websites to help collectors and dealers verify CGC-certified collectibles. In addition, collectors can use the CGC Dealer Locator to find CGC Authorized Dealers.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:12 PM, CGC Mike said:

Unfortunately, counterfeit – and, relatedly, tampered – products have become an issue that many companies and consumers now face. Bad actors seek illegitimate profits by creating knockoffs of well-known, trusted and valuable brands. CGC is one of these targets, and we will take aggressive action to combat counterfeiters and other fraudsters, including through lawsuits, security enhancements and awareness campaigns. We cannot, however, provide compensation to people who purchase counterfeit or tampered products. This would, in effect, render the counterfeit or tampered products as valuable as the real deal, despite CGC having absolutely no involvement in their production.

 The 350 books identified by CGC on 1/3/24 are in a different category because they were submitted to CGC for reholder after being tampered with, and we did not detect the tampering at the time.

 We still want to know about other counterfeit or tampered with CGC holders because we will aggressively pursue these bad actors to the fullest extent of the law. We are committed to taking the appropriate steps to prevent counterfeiting (and tampering), and we will take legal action against those who attempt it.

 CCG strongly advises prospective buyers to do their research and buy from reputable sources. CGC offers the free Verify CGC Certification tool on its websites to help collectors and dealers verify CGC-certified collectibles. In addition, collectors can use the CGC Dealer Locator to find CGC Authorized Dealers.

It's a long wait, I'm glad cgc has been at it a while, Lord willing can add up to something. Patience is hard but worth it.

[sledgehammer]

It’s not just a failure of CGC recognizing that books that were submitted for re-holder  had been tampered with.

It’s a failure of letting their customers know exactly how they are supposed to be able to determine whether or not their purchase has been tampered with.

Edited February 15 by sledgehammer

[MAR1979]

CCG strongly advises prospective buyers to do their research and buy from reputable sources. CGC offers the free Verify CGC Certification tool on its websites to help collectors and dealers verify CGC-certified collectibles. In addition, collectors can use the CGC Dealer Locator to find CGC Authorized Dealers.

 

In effect purchasing a slabbed book now requires significantly more effort & carries greater risk than purchasing raw. So much for one of the main reasons CGC was born in the first place.

 

Edited February 15 by MAR1979

[awakeintheashes]

On 2/14/2024 at 8:31 PM, MAR1979 said:

CCG strongly advises prospective buyers to do their research and buy from reputable sources. CGC offers the free Verify CGC Certification tool on its websites to help collectors and dealers verify CGC-certified collectibles. In addition, collectors can use the CGC Dealer Locator to find CGC Authorized Dealers.

 

In effect purchasing a slabbed book requires significantly more effort carries more risk than purchasing raw. So much for one of the main reasons CGC was born in the first place.

 

Considering the verify tool wouldn’t have helped at all with the reholdered books, you’re right plus 100. 

[silent06]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:25 PM, sledgehammer said:

It’s not just a failure of CGC recognizing that books that were submitted for re-holder and had been tampered with.

It’s a failure of letting their customers know exactly how they are supposed to be able to determine whether or not their purchase has been tampered with.

Agreed. Outside of the validation of the certification number via the CGC verification site, CGC does not provide or outline any procedure or guidance for the consumer to inspect and discern or detect if the CGC holder or the contents within the holder have been tampered with, counterfeited or the contents of the book within the holder are in any way incomplete. Prior to this tampering incident, there wasn't even any statement regarding how a consumer or purchaser should take action if they suspected tamper or the contents of the holder had been altered in any way. The consumer or purchaser was standing on CGC's guarantee that the contents of the holder were authentic and unaltered based on the conveyance and trust of CGC's grading, holder and certification process. 

Edited February 15 by silent06

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:25 PM, sledgehammer said:

It’s not just a failure of CGC recognizing that books that were submitted for re-holder  had been tampered with.

It’s a failure of letting their customers know exactly how they are supposed to be able to determine whether or not their purchase has been tampered with.

How would you suggest PR handle it?

The trees fiddy are under the guarantee and the others aren't, they explained why.

I suppose offering a free or inexpensive review or look over wouldn't be unreasonable, but they aren't legally obligated to compensate if something happens, as that rewards the criminals, legitimizes their operation, and undermines just as bad.

On 2/14/2024 at 7:31 PM, MAR1979 said:

CCG strongly advises prospective buyers to do their research and buy from reputable sources. CGC offers the free Verify CGC Certification tool on its websites to help collectors and dealers verify CGC-certified collectibles. In addition, collectors can use the CGC Dealer Locator to find CGC Authorized Dealers.

 

In effect purchasing a slabbed book now requires significantly more effort & carries greater risk than purchasing raw. So much for one of the main reasons CGC was born in the first place.

 

Again it's easy to point fingers. I'd guess that CGC wishes they "could do more", but to not legitimize the tampering.

 

 

 

By and by they didn't deny the thousands of slabs, what y'all said is already true, just nothing cgc specifically can do about it. I would struggle to see how it is cgc fault that scammers found a way, I'd just be happy if they find a fix. And given this thread any fix is only temporary, along with inevitable. It is what it is, not saying you're wrong.

What do you expect cgc to do? Rather than point "out the obvious".