ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[ADAMANTIUM]

Then again to get it done and not reholder?

It took cgc employees 

I'll see myself out 

[Buzzetta]

SMH... 

Has CGC been removing books from that list.  I am a little unclear whether that was the case or not.

I would like all books associated with that so I can run any prospective book against anything that was in that submission.  At this point anything received in those submissions is suspect to me and something I do not want in my collection.  Anyone have a complete list behind the scenes that would be willing to give me a copy?   I am sure I could have asked a few people privately but some of this is complete Bona fied Sewage.

As far as CGC Authorized Dealers? 

That is insane especially when there is / was suspicion that a dealer in Crooklyn was involved with suspect slabs.  On top of that, are all of the employees verified, because apparently that cannot be trusted either or can is that for another thread.  I dislike hearing that the onus now is to be suspicious of everyone and that the solution is that CGC wants to steer people toward certain dealers.  CGC might as well shut down the buying and selling threads then because outside of Dale's once a year thread, I do not usually see dealers listing their items there.

 

 

Edited February 15 by Buzzetta

[sledgehammer]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:49 AM, comicjel said:

... and remember that they also added a note under the "verify" scan to contact them if you suspect counterfeiting (or something to that effect) at the same time.

The breaking news, is that all of that language down at the bottom of the grading notes,  now means "if you suspect tampering, please send the book back to us, and pay us to grade it again for you".

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:25 PM, Buzzetta said:

SMH... 

Has CGC been removing books from that list.  I am a little unclear whether that was the case or not.

I would like all books associated with that so I can run any prospective book against anything that was in that submission.  At this point anything received in those submissions is suspect to me and something I do not want in my collection.  Anyone have a complete list behind the scenes that would be willing to give me a copy?   I am sure I could have asked a few people privately but some of this is complete Bona fied Sewage.

As far as CGC Authorized Dealers? 

That is insane especially when there is / was suspicion that a dealer in Crooklyn was suspect slabs.  On top of that, are all of the employees verified, because apparently that cannot be trusted either or can is that for another thread.  I dislike hearing that the onus now is to be suspicious of everyone and that the solution is that CGC wants to steer people toward certain dealers.  CGC might as well shut down the buying and selling threads then because outside of Dale's once a year thread, I do not usually see dealers listing their items there.

 

 

They've been crossing them off.

They haven't been telling us the reason ones were crossed off.

Whether tampered or not, to compensation and etc.

One could assume since they are trying to submit litigation, that it is all in house at the moment, same as the slab fixes, which reportedly now takes a hammer to open.

That now leaves 20+ years of slabs that people are wondering how will they "guarantee' those, which cgc either hasn't thought of yet or hasn't finalized.

All of this is just the beginning . Just because they can't now, doesn't mean they won't, imo. But given my last few posts, I don't know how encouraging that sounds

[comeaux]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:17 PM, BrashL said:

So based on Mike’s statement, a CGC guarantee is worth exactly zero. Good luck out there, hope nobody messed with our easily exploited cases! The sudden change to the word counterfeit to align with the lawsuit is hilarious too. Now that’s the word of the day instead of crappy process and case design. Got it. 

BOOOM !!! I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing !!! The CGC guarantee is lower than whale chit at ocean bottom.
 

I kinda feel sorry for CGC Mike because some Stuffed Shirt at CGC (Can’t Guarantee Chit) handed him this list of CGC hieroglyphics to post here to satisfy the natives and chromosome deficient slugs but those of us with with functional brains see the reality of CGC slapping lipstick on a pig. 

[BrashL]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:12 PM, CGC Mike said:

Unfortunately, counterfeit – and, relatedly, tampered – products have become an issue that many companies and consumers now face. Bad actors seek illegitimate profits by creating knockoffs of well-known, trusted and valuable brands. CGC is one of these targets, and we will take aggressive action to combat counterfeiters and other fraudsters, including through lawsuits, security enhancements and awareness campaigns. 

This is straight from the lawyers. Total abdication of liability and responsibility that we all assumed was part of the guarantee.

Quote

We cannot, however, provide compensation to people who purchase counterfeit or tampered products.

This is particularly stunning considering the fact that in their own legal filing they allege that the party they are suing was reselling books directly to consumers. His work was good enough to fool their employees for years, however if Joe Public was fooled in the same way by this same person, tough luck. Buy from a reputable dealer next time. which I guess is no longer Comiclink according to CGC, good to know. 

[BrashL]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:28 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

same as the slab fixes, which reportedly now takes a hammer to open.

 

Where are you getting that from? Did I miss an announcement?

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:36 PM, BrashL said:

Where are you getting that from? Did I miss an announcement?

Thank you for responding. As last couple of posts I was just hopeful, call them beer goggles.

But to answer you question it's been reported in several threads, back from cgc thread I think and perhaps current tat. I would have to look for specific screenshots, I do have the time. But it has been stated by 10+ people

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:38 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

On 2/14/2024 at 9:36 PM, BrashL said:

Where are you getting that from? Did I miss an announcement?

Thank you for responding. As last couple of posts I was just hopeful, call them beer goggles.

But to answer you question it's been reported in several threads, back from cgc thread I think and perhaps current tat. I would have to look for specific screenshots, I do have the time. But it has been stated by 10+ people

Mainly this thread but other places too, and with that I'll re zip my lip lol.

 

Edited February 15 by ADAMANTIUM

[shadroch]

On 2/14/2024 at 8:38 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Thank you for responding. As last couple of posts I was just hopeful, call them beer goggles.

But to answer you question it's been reported in several threads, back from cgc thread I think and perhaps current tat. I would have to look for specific screenshots, I do have the time. But it has been stated by 10+ people

  Several also said slabs in the same submission opened easily so I wouldn't read a lot into it. It's been years since I opened slabs on a regular basis but I've always found an occasional one that was much harder to open.

[sledgehammer]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:36 PM, BrashL said:

Where are you getting that from? Did I miss an announcement?

that slab that point five was having difficulty getting open, was graded in October of last year. It has nothing to do with improving the security of the slab.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:45 PM, sledgehammer said:

that slab that point five was having difficulty getting open, was graded in October of last year. It has nothing to do with improving the security of the slab.

Well that is new and would have helped in the other threads, however if true, haven't we identified that CGC has been headlong into this mess a lot longer than we have?

With the inquiries and detectives the firings and etc?

They've been saying they've been implementing things all this time. I think the reason they weren't made public of specifics is because of litigation and all the other mentioned.

Making changes public other than the boiler plate, "we implemented stuff!" Is all we're going to get. Right? Here is some proof that I thought we were looking for?

Edited February 15 by ADAMANTIUM

[WernerVonDoom]

Well fellow collectors, CGC is unfortunately washing their hands of tampered books that have not been re-holdered. No guarantee. No instruction. No advice.

Looks like we need to do it ourselves. We need 1) a list of books that have been touched by known scammers, 2) examples of cases that have been tampered with, 3) instructions for detecting tampering.

Pipedream, but it would also be nice if CGC offered a cheap review/re-holder/re-number for suspected books.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:52 PM, WernerVonDoom said:

Well fellow collectors, CGC is unfortunately washing their hands of tampered books that have not been re-holdered. No guarantee. No instruction. No advice.

Looks like we need to do it ourselves. We need 1) a list of books that have been touched by known scammers, 2) examples of cases that have been tampered with, 3) instructions for detecting tampering.

Pipedream, but it would also be nice if CGC offered a cheap review/re-holder/re-number for suspected books.

+1

Which I think we'll get some of, as public this thing is now, that and will become...

[sledgehammer]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:52 PM, WernerVonDoom said:

Well fellow collectors, CGC is unfortunately washing their hands of tampered books that have not been re-holdered. No guarantee. No instruction. No advice.

Looks like we need to do it ourselves. We need 1) a list of books that have been touched by known scammers, 2) examples of cases that have been tampered with, 3) instructions for detecting tampering.

Pipedream, but it would also be nice if CGC offered a cheap review/re-holder/re-number for suspected books.

I might be naïve, but I cannot imagine a way, that a cost benefit analysis, would not lead them to think that releasing a list of every one of the scammer's submissions, is not the direction that they should want to go.

This is heading in the direction of obliterating the value of their service.

Edited February 15 by sledgehammer

[BrashL]

 

On 2/14/2024 at 9:52 PM, WernerVonDoom said:

Well fellow collectors, CGC is unfortunately washing their hands of tampered books that have not been re-holdered. No guarantee. No instruction. No advice.

Looks like we need to do it ourselves. We need 1) a list of books that have been touched by known scammers, 2) examples of cases that have been tampered with, 3) instructions for detecting tampering.

Pipedream, but it would also be nice if CGC offered a cheap review/re-holder/re-number for suspected books.

Or we could just, ya know, stop buying them until a new case is released.  Seems a lot simpler. 

Edited February 15 by BrashL

[comeaux]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:12 PM, CGC Mike said:

Unfortunately, counterfeit – and, relatedly, tampered – products have become an issue that many companies and consumers now face. Bad actors seek illegitimate profits by creating knockoffs of well-known, trusted and valuable brands. CGC is one of these targets, and we will take aggressive action to combat counterfeiters and other fraudsters, including through lawsuits, security enhancements and awareness campaigns. We cannot, however, provide compensation to people who purchase counterfeit or tampered products. This would, in effect, render the counterfeit or tampered products as valuable as the real deal, despite CGC having absolutely no involvement in their production.

 The 350 books identified by CGC on 1/3/24 are in a different category because they were submitted to CGC for reholder after being tampered with, and we did not detect the tampering at the time.

 We still want to know about other counterfeit or tampered with CGC holders because we will aggressively pursue these bad actors to the fullest extent of the law. We are committed to taking the appropriate steps to prevent counterfeiting (and tampering), and we will take legal action against those who attempt it.

 CCG strongly advises prospective buyers to do their research and buy from reputable sources. CGC offers the free Verify CGC Certification tool on its websites to help collectors and dealers verify CGC-certified collectibles. In addition, collectors can use the CGC Dealer Locator to find CGC Authorized Dealers.

Mike can you ask the CGC lawyer who typed this note a few a questions ? 
 

If the grading “professionals” at CGC could not detect a CGC case that had been tampered with, how is anyone else supposed to detect tampering? Isn’t CGC the most prominent grading company in the world? If CGC can’t detect tampering, how does CGC expect anyone else to recognize tampering?
 

Why can’t CGC provide compensation to people who purchase comics in tampered cases? If CGC claims to have tamper resistant holders that have been compromised by tampering, shouldn’t the owner of the tamper proof holder be compensated for the tamper resistant holder that been exposed to tampering? 

[comeaux]

On 2/14/2024 at 9:35 PM, BrashL said:

This is particularly stunning considering the fact that in their own legal filing they allege that the party they are suing was reselling books directly to consumers. His work was good enough to fool their employees for years, however if Joe Public was fooled in the same way by this same person, tough luck. Buy from a reputable dealer next time. which I guess is no longer Comiclink according to CGC, good to know. 

CGC is going to get smoked in this case and I hope they get sued for malicious prosecution, sometimes pain is the only way to learn. 

[DC#]

On 2/14/2024 at 7:40 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

Mainly this thread but other places too, and with that I'll re zip my lip lol.

 

I just got back a slab from CGC and though I can’t see any visual indicators of anything new - the thing is very much sealed tight on all 4 edges.   Any other gen 3 slabs in my collection can be pried gently apart along top and bottom - and a few on sides.    This was how people were  paper or other objects to remove or lessen newton rings without actually opening the slab.  

[comicjel]

I was concerned that we would get to this point - you could see it coming down the pike a mile away as the 350 list was not increasing - CGC was always going to draw the line at the reholdered books.

I get that CGC can not compensate for every CGC comic that has ever been graded and then tampered with (and "not" reholdered) - there would be no way to manage that.

I may be wrong, but I suspect that CGC would like to compensate collectors for the portion of the 2,000 books that were swapped by "these" scammers (I know that Matt would want that done), but CGC is likely concerned about creating a precedent of compensating tampered non-reholdered books for the whole population of comics that they have ever graded. 

I do think that they could (and should) separately carve out the 2,000 or so books that were graded by these scammers, and provide compensation if it can be shown that the scammers swapped the books and did not leave a reasonably noticeable trace on the outside holder, since IMO, if CGC had better quality control with the reholdering, they would have caught them and banned them well before they could successfully grade 2,000 books.  The precedent, therefore, would be that CGC is compensating for these books because they did not catch their reholdering scam sooner and ban them - and go ahead and say that these 2,000 books are being singled out for just this reason.  It would be good PR, and the right thing to do. 

As an aside, If CGC is determining that scammers can tamper with their cases without leaving a "reasonably" noticeable telltale sign, then the only option, as I see it, is to provide scans of every comic that CGC has ever graded, because even a new holder will not protect the books that have already been graded.