ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[grendel013]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:08 AM, sledgehammer said:

But why would scamboy(s) want lower grade slabs, if that submission was even his?

[Mdesimone]

Has anyone received compensation yet for books that were hijacked by cgc? All I get is we don’t know anything from the fraud department 

[sledgehammer]

On 2/19/2024 at 8:40 AM, grendel013 said:

On 2/19/2024 at 8:08 AM, sledgehammer said:

But why would scamboy(s) want lower grade slabs, if that submission was even his?

That's a Bingo!

[Junkdrawer]

On 1/29/2024 at 7:53 AM, Sigur Ros said:

Why all?

I only see one screwing up horribly.

And repeatedly.

For years or shall I say decades, the unscrupulous have infiltrated many hobbies where money and markets form. Printing money is a federal offense and earns a minimum 10 yrs. However to recreate a card or item that’s popular is a mere trademark infringement. Perhaps a cease and desist is your punishment. So the baddies hit the hobbies. Years before there were grading companies there were counterfeits of a wide variety of things. Even they have tried to reprint the grading companies labels. So it likely makes more sense to instead surgically open the case the collectibles are inside and replace them with inferior copies. You may think that there is no way that any case can be opened, I think it’s possible. I’m familiar with a seller of a large gold bar he sold to a customer who then sold the same bar back years later, only it was drilled out and filled with lead and perfectly concealed like new. It was later X-rayed and the theft was realized. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. A complex but simple scheme. Perhaps all hobbyists are safe from here on out, but so are the schemers. I’m not trying to say it’s happening here and gonna happen there but I am saying don’t be so trusting. On a side note, the news alone hits the market/hobbies as well. To be perfectly clear, I’m not speaking about comic books in general, but all collective gradedable items. Yes that means those sealed video games that are now graded are all legit. People that graded them likely weren’t old enough to have first hand knowledge or seen multiple examples to even compare. I could go on and on and on about things I’ve heard and witnessed over the years as a collector of many things. Boo!

[comicjel]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:08 AM, sledgehammer said:

Big 23 book submission in June of 2022. Hiring point of the Terrazzos ?

Look    at these    notes......   https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4046486023/     

What is interesting to me, is that two of the books in the submission were Secret Wars Wars 8, 9.8s, not on the list.

There are multiple certs in that submission, of lower grade copies of ASM 238, ASM 252 and IH 340.  8.5-9.0. Not very high grade copies.

But why would scamboy(s) want lower grade slabs, if that submission was even his?

 

This would make complete sense - the Terrazzas' really only needed books that, in their estimation, were good enough to pass as 9.8s, and as Grendel013 pointed out, they needed them to already be inside inner wells, before they went to the "reholder" department.  Once there, they already had access to the needed 9.8 labels (through the label database / printer) - remember there was a reference in their filing to them printing duplicate labels of higher grade books.

Unlike the outside scammers, the Terrazza's only needed the inferior books, they did not need to have or steal actual 9.8 books (which may have drawn more attention or be in a more secure holding area).  

If we find that this 23 book submission is definitely the Terrazza's submission, how could the inside scammers and outside scammers independently choose the same key books to use in their scam?? 

Edited February 19 by comicjel

[sledgehammer]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:19 AM, comicjel said:

This would make complete sense - the Terrazzas' really only needed books that, in their estimation, were good enough to pass as 9.8s, and as Grendel013 pointed out, they needed them to already be inside inner wells, before they went to the "reholder" department.  Once there, they already had access to the needed 9.8 labels (through the label database / printer) - remember there was a reference in their filing to them printing duplicate labels of higher grade books.

Unlike the outside scammers, the Terrazza's only needed the inferior books, they did not need to have or steal actual 9.8 books (which may have drawn more attention or be in a more secure holding area).  

This smells more like the Zanellos to me.

[comicjel]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:34 AM, sledgehammer said:

This smells more like the Zanellos to me.

Agree! - I added an edit to my post on this.

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/19/2024 at 10:05 AM, Junkdrawer said:

For years or shall I say decades, the unscrupulous have infiltrated many hobbies where money and markets form.  So the baddies hit the hobbies. Years before there were grading companies there were counterfeits of a wide variety of things. 

Three magnets for scammers are: free flowing money, easy marks and low risk of prosecution. Whether it be comics, coins, autographs etc., the collectibles fields have all of this in abundance. Collectors buy emotionally and are often willing to suspend disbelief. Forgers and counterfeiters know they are rarely indicted, let alone convicted. These types of scams are too complex for local DAs and too low on the totem pole for the Feds. It's shocking that it took this long for a significant slab scam to arise.

[shadroch]

A third-party grading system relies on consumers having confidence in the company.  Nuff said!

[comicjel]

On 2/19/2024 at 6:15 AM, godzilla43 said:

That is one ugly 9.8.

With yet another example of a clearly inferior book in a 9.8 holder and uncharacteristic grader notes, I wonder if there was a loophole in the reholder labeling software, where a cert for a lower grade book could be changed to a 9.8, and have it save that way as if it had originally been graded as a 9.8.

It would explain a lot!

 

[sledgehammer]

On 2/19/2024 at 11:22 AM, comicjel said:

With yet another example of a clearly inferior book in a 9.8 holder and uncharacteristic grader notes, I wonder if there was a loophole in the reholder labeling software, where a cert for a lower grade book could be changed to a 9.8, and have it save that way as if it had originally been graded as a 9.8.

It would explain a lot!

 

The grader's notes on that NTT are insanely unusual. The same submission, has a 9.4 with NO notes.

Here are some other books in that same youtube video new titans submission.

4046486005   ASM  316   9.0

4046486006  ASM  361   9.2

4046486007  SW 8  9.8

4046486008  SW 8  9.8

4046486010  ASM  252  9.0

4046486011  ASM  252  9.0

4046486012  ASM  252  9.4

4046486014  ASM  238  6.0

4046486015  HULK 340  9.0

4046486016  HULK  340  9.0

Maybe CGC could indulge us this one time, and tell us if this was a "zanello"  submission.  @MattM CS

If it was, the New Teen Titans book in the video is likely another of his scams, not currently on the list

[awakeintheashes]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:26 PM, sledgehammer said:

The grader's notes on that NTT are insanely unusual. The same submission, has a 9.4 with NO notes.

Here are some other books in that same youtube video new titans submission.

4046486005   ASM  316   9.0

4046486006  ASM  361   9.2

4046486007  SW 8  9.8

4046486008  SW 8  9.8

4046486010  ASM  252  9.0

4046486011  ASM  252  9.0

4046486012  ASM  252  9.4

4046486014  ASM  238  6.0

4046486015  HULK 340  9.0

4046486016  HULK  340  9.0

Maybe CGC could indulge us this one time, and tell us if this was a "zanello"  submission.  @MattM CS

If it was, the New Teen Titans book in the video is likely another of his scams, not currently on the list

Maybe the email from the CCG president came out a little too early. Hopefully, this isn't a new scam that requires an addendum to his laundry list of people scamming CCG and the collecting community. 

[grendel013]

On 2/19/2024 at 1:19 PM, awakeintheashes said:

Maybe the email from the CCG president came out a little too early. Hopefully, this isn't a new scam that requires an addendum to his laundry list of people scamming CCG and the collecting community. 

I was just reading my email too...   A Letter from Steven R. Eichenbaum

Dear friends, The Certified Collectibles Group and our companies — NGC, PMG, CGC and ASG — exist to protect the collecting community from counterfeit, overgraded and otherwise misrepresented collectibles. I like to say that we are the “Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval” in the collectibles world. Our position as the hobby’s first line of defense sometimes makes us a target for bad actors who try to defraud us or misappropriate the trust that we have built with our community. These scammers are persistent, and we are in a constant battle to prevent and detect fraud, such as counterfeiting or tampering with our holders. CCG has certified more than 85 million collectibles since 1987, including more than 10 million in 2023 alone. Counterfeit and tampered-with holders represent a tiny fraction of the holders in the marketplace, but even one is unacceptable to us. We continue to pursue an aggressive, multi-faceted strategy to combat this scourge. We take a number of defensive measures, such as imaging all collectibles, testing and upgrading the seals on our holders, releasing new high-security holograms and adding variable QR codes, with more to come. We also go on the offense and aggressively pursue bad actors, big and small, across the globe. We will keep the community informed of all of these developments, and today I’d like to give you an update on our legal efforts. In Europe, an individual falsely claimed that he did not receive a return submission of banknotes and tried to recover more than € 100,000 from us. Our team conducted an intensive investigation and determined that he not only received the package but had also distributed many of the banknotes. After tracing these notes back to him, we notified law enforcement in Germany, where we have an office in Munich; in Austria, where the banknotes were delivered; and Turkey, where the individual lives. Austrian authorities took up the case, and two weeks ago the individual was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 10 months in prison. Another incident involved two former employees, one of whom stole comic books from CGC submissions. They had these stolen books, along with some of their own books, encapsulated in CGC Comics holders, and then smuggled the books out of our facility to sell through various marketplaces. We swiftly filed a lawsuit against them and have already been granted a temporary restraining order while we pursue further actions, including damages. We have also filed a lawsuit against an individual and his partner who tampered with CGC comic book holders to replace higher-graded comic books with lower-graded comic books of the same type. We are keeping the community updated on comic books impacted by this incident here. On February 13, 2024, we obtained a Preliminary Injunction Order prohibiting the defendant from distributing, circulating, selling, marketing, altering, removing — basically anything related to CGC-graded books — pending the final hearing and ruling in the case. We are seeking further remedies from the court, including damages We will not tolerate acts of fraud against our community, and we will not rest until justice is served. We have been successful in the past. For example, last year, we advantageously settled a lawsuit against Richard Albright, who perpetrated a coin swapping scheme with NGC holders. He was ordered to report all collectibles that may have been impacted by his scheme, surrender all of his electronic devices during the investigation, cooperate with efforts to reimburse consumers and pay damages. We recognize that fighting fraud that has already occurred is only one half of the equation to solve for a protected, confident and whole community. Staying ahead of the bad actors is absolutely essential to ensure these types of incidents do not continue to happen, and we will take the steps necessary to enhance the security of our services and facilities. We have a comprehensive initiative to make continual, meaningful updates to the security of our products, and will share updates as they are available. Collectors and dealers can protect themselves from fraud in a number of ways: Always look up a collectible in our free Verification Certification tool on the homepage of our websites. All collectibles are now being imaged in high-resolution, and you can compare the images of your collectible to the images that we took. Buy from CCG Authorized Dealers, Official Submission Centers or Strategic Partners. You can look them up using the free Dealer Locator on our website. Choose online marketplaces that offer buyer protection, such as eBay. Do your research and exercise common sense. If a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is. If you suspect fraud, please report it immediately to ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com. We are committed to protecting our community from fraudsters and anyone else who seeks to take advantage of collectors. We are also committed to being transparent with all of you and sharing information about what we are doing for you. Your passion is our passion. Sincerely, Steven R. Eichenbaum CEO

[RonS2112]

On 2/19/2024 at 1:22 PM, grendel013 said:

I was just reading my email too...   A Letter from Steven R. Eichenbaum

Dear friends, The Certified Collectibles Group and our companies — NGC, PMG, CGC and ASG — exist to protect the collecting community from counterfeit, overgraded and otherwise misrepresented collectibles. I like to say that we are the “Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval” in the collectibles world. Our position as the hobby’s first line of defense sometimes makes us a target for bad actors who try to defraud us or misappropriate the trust that we have built with our community. These scammers are persistent, and we are in a constant battle to prevent and detect fraud, such as counterfeiting or tampering with our holders. CCG has certified more than 85 million collectibles since 1987, including more than 10 million in 2023 alone. Counterfeit and tampered-with holders represent a tiny fraction of the holders in the marketplace, but even one is unacceptable to us. We continue to pursue an aggressive, multi-faceted strategy to combat this scourge. We take a number of defensive measures, such as imaging all collectibles, testing and upgrading the seals on our holders, releasing new high-security holograms and adding variable QR codes, with more to come. We also go on the offense and aggressively pursue bad actors, big and small, across the globe. We will keep the community informed of all of these developments, and today I’d like to give you an update on our legal efforts. In Europe, an individual falsely claimed that he did not receive a return submission of banknotes and tried to recover more than € 100,000 from us. Our team conducted an intensive investigation and determined that he not only received the package but had also distributed many of the banknotes. After tracing these notes back to him, we notified law enforcement in Germany, where we have an office in Munich; in Austria, where the banknotes were delivered; and Turkey, where the individual lives. Austrian authorities took up the case, and two weeks ago the individual was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 10 months in prison. Another incident involved two former employees, one of whom stole comic books from CGC submissions. They had these stolen books, along with some of their own books, encapsulated in CGC Comics holders, and then smuggled the books out of our facility to sell through various marketplaces. We swiftly filed a lawsuit against them and have already been granted a temporary restraining order while we pursue further actions, including damages. We have also filed a lawsuit against an individual and his partner who tampered with CGC comic book holders to replace higher-graded comic books with lower-graded comic books of the same type. We are keeping the community updated on comic books impacted by this incident here. On February 13, 2024, we obtained a Preliminary Injunction Order prohibiting the defendant from distributing, circulating, selling, marketing, altering, removing — basically anything related to CGC-graded books — pending the final hearing and ruling in the case. We are seeking further remedies from the court, including damages We will not tolerate acts of fraud against our community, and we will not rest until justice is served. We have been successful in the past. For example, last year, we advantageously settled a lawsuit against Richard Albright, who perpetrated a coin swapping scheme with NGC holders. He was ordered to report all collectibles that may have been impacted by his scheme, surrender all of his electronic devices during the investigation, cooperate with efforts to reimburse consumers and pay damages. We recognize that fighting fraud that has already occurred is only one half of the equation to solve for a protected, confident and whole community. Staying ahead of the bad actors is absolutely essential to ensure these types of incidents do not continue to happen, and we will take the steps necessary to enhance the security of our services and facilities. We have a comprehensive initiative to make continual, meaningful updates to the security of our products, and will share updates as they are available. Collectors and dealers can protect themselves from fraud in a number of ways: Always look up a collectible in our free Verification Certification tool on the homepage of our websites. All collectibles are now being imaged in high-resolution, and you can compare the images of your collectible to the images that we took. Buy from CCG Authorized Dealers, Official Submission Centers or Strategic Partners. You can look them up using the free Dealer Locator on our website. Choose online marketplaces that offer buyer protection, such as eBay. Do your research and exercise common sense. If a deal seems too good to be true, it probably is. If you suspect fraud, please report it immediately to ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com. We are committed to protecting our community from fraudsters and anyone else who seeks to take advantage of collectors. We are also committed to being transparent with all of you and sharing information about what we are doing for you. Your passion is our passion. Sincerely, Steven R. Eichenbaum CEO

This really strikes me as an attempt to paint CGC as a victim here, while simultaneously shifting the onus of protection onto the customer.  Makes my decision to let my susbsription lapse seem even more sound.

To describe themselves as "a target" is shameful -- to be clear, their customers were the targets.  CGC was an enabler, as a result of their shoddy quality control.

 

 

Edited February 19 by RonS2112

[BrashL]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:22 PM, grendel013 said:

 

We take a number of defensive measures, such as imaging all collectibles, testing and upgrading the seals on our holders, releasing new high-security holograms and adding variable QR codes, with more to come.

 

So this would seem to substantiate the idea that they have quietly made a change at the end of the year to the cases. Makes sense that they didn't do an announcement since holders of older cases would be rightfully pissed, but at least they're doing something. Seems like anything slabbed Dec 2023 and safer should be treated as a safer option. I'm tempted to do a submission to test it. 

[MAR1979]

On 2/19/2024 at 1:24 PM, RonS2112 said:

This really strikes me as an attempt to paint CGC as a victim here, while simultaneously shifting the onus of protection onto the customer.  Makes my decision to let my susbsription lapse seem even more sound.

 

 

Its tantamount to Certified Collectibles Group flipping the double-bird to all who purchase their wares. AKA,  CGC stating "we're rubber, your glue"

Edited February 19 by MAR1979

[comicjel]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:26 PM, sledgehammer said:

The grader's notes on that NTT are insanely unusual. The same submission, has a 9.4 with NO notes.

Here are some other books in that same youtube video new titans submission.

4046486005   ASM  316   9.0

4046486006  ASM  361   9.2

4046486007  SW 8  9.8

4046486008  SW 8  9.8

4046486010  ASM  252  9.0

4046486011  ASM  252  9.0

4046486012  ASM  252  9.4

4046486014  ASM  238  6.0

4046486015  HULK 340  9.0

4046486016  HULK  340  9.0

Maybe CGC could indulge us this one time, and tell us if this was a "zanello"  submission.  @MattM CS

If it was, the New Teen Titans book in the video is likely another of his scams, not currently on the list

FWIW, the two SW 8 9.8s show the following:

 

#4046486007

- per GPA sold 9/12/22 for $749 (GoCollect does not reflect this sale in their records)

- per GoCollect sold 11/17/22 for $802 and has a scan of the book - right top corner looks soft to me, but hard to see too much else (it is a direct edition)

 

#4046486008

- per GPA sold 6/26/22 for $645 (GoCollect does not reflect this sale in their records)

- per GoCollect sold 8/22/22 for best offer under $700 (it is a direct edition)

 

Not sure too much can be gleaned here, but I will leave it to the experts (Comicwiz, Sledge and Brute most notably) 

 

 

Edited February 19 by comicjel

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/19/2024 at 8:55 AM, sledgehammer said:

On 2/19/2024 at 8:40 AM, grendel013 said:

On 2/19/2024 at 8:08 AM, sledgehammer said:

But why would scamboy(s) want lower grade slabs, if that submission was even his?

That's a Bingo!

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:22 PM, grendel013 said:

“Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval” in the collectibles world.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 2/19/2024 at 12:22 PM, grendel013 said:

We continue to pursue an aggressive, multi-faceted strategy to combat this scourge.