ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:47 PM, skybolt said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't even need to involve taking the bold move of re-holdering books through CGC. If someone has figured out a way to remove inner wells without damaging the slab, they can technically buy an ASM #1 CGC 4.0 and an ASM CGC 3.0 restored. Do the whole switcheroo thing, and make a couple of grand just like that.

That's what I thought was happening when I checked out the Automatic Comics video. Not because I'm some kind of an expert on sonic welding, but because the scammer has to spend thousands of dollars in order to acquire the books to commit the scam in the first place, and I would think involving CGC in the process at all would be too risky. 

[jsilverjanet]

folks what we have here is a perfect storm of biblical proportions

wake up people! I know, I've seen it before many times

friday looming, heading into a long holiday weekend

they probably have their laptops shut down and getting ready for their holiday party

if there was a way to alert the media maybe we could get some traction on this problem

I'm sure they will come in here and play the victim "we had no clue"

what do you think @Buzzetta

fyi - this is my last post

Edited December 21, 2023 by jsilverjanet

[Prince Namor]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:04 AM, jsilverjanet said:

folks what we have here is a perfect storm of biblical proportions

wake up people! I know, I've seen it before many times

friday looming, heading into a long holiday weekend

they probably have their laptops shut down and getting ready for their holiday party

if there was a way to alert the media maybe we could get some traction on this problem

I'm sure they will come in here and play the victim "we had no clue"

what do you think @Buzzetta

fyi - this is my last post

And yet somehow, no one's blaming the Corporate Parent Company here... we all know it's true... but no one is talking about it!

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:58 PM, mephistopheles said:

What a @#$%^ mess. CGC's reputation is going to be tarnished for a long time.

I keep hearing this every time there's a scandal, but people seem to keep on going back to CGC anyway. I don't think they ever lose any business at all.

 

 

[paqart]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:14 PM, Happy Noodle Boy said:

I keep hearing this every time there's a scandal, but people seem to keep on going back to CGC anyway. I don't think they ever lose any business at all.

 

 

In this thread, a couple of people already stated that they turned off auto-renew, so CGC has lost business because of this already.

[Ryan.]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:14 PM, Happy Noodle Boy said:

I keep hearing this every time there's a scandal, but people seem to keep on going back to CGC anyway. I don't think they ever lose any business at all.

 

 

CGC has been caught selling grades. Twice. This is but a minor annoyance to them. Nothing changes. 

[brute_nm]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:04 PM, jsilverjanet said:

folks what we have here is a perfect storm of biblical proportions

wake up people! I know, I've seen it before many times

friday looming, heading into a long holiday weekend

they probably have their laptops shut down and getting ready for their holiday party

if there was a way to alert the media maybe we could get some traction on this problem

I'm sure they will come in here and play the victim "we had no clue"

what do you think @Buzzetta

fyi - this is my last post

"All you gotta do is avoid them on the last few hours on Friday, duck out early, and turn off your answering machine. You should be home free, man"

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:05 PM, Timed said:

On 12/21/2023 at 5:02 PM, drotto said:

Really glad my H181 was bought from a local shop raw, and checked for the stamp. I later had it stabbed.  I can say at least mine is 100% accurate.

Sorry drotto, while I would love to believe you, the only way to prove that it has the MVS now seems to be cracking it open. Since CGC slabs have lost their credibility.

To be fair, CGC slabs FROM THIS SELLER have lost ALL their credibility.

That doesn't mean every slab is automatically problematic. 

I understand, you don't know which are which out in the wild, but just as when we saw the counterfeit labels in the NW earlier this year that were caught by more experienced dealers, buying from a reputable dealer greatly reduces your chances of a problem with the sale over all. 

I would have NO problem buying slabs from reputable dealers even now. Guys like Storms, Ritter, myself and many other dealers and auction houses have great eyes for this sort of thing. If I had any hesitancy, all I need to do is inquire whether they were slabbed or not by that dealer (I directly slab 99.9% of my books), or, if the dealer remembers where they got the book from.

Reputable dealers have a LOT of experience with grading and slabs and can remove a lot of the worry that this new problem has brought to the marketplace. 

This definitely is a problem, but this is a drop in the ocean as far as the entire pool of CGC graded books out there, and buying from reputable people OR knowing how to spot these things eliminates a majority of the relatively small risk left that thieves will always exploit in any field. 

If you're buying your things from someone inexperienced, or worse from a dark alley, you greatly reduce your chances of success...which is EXACTLY how the previous counterfeit slabs came to market earlier this year. 

This guy has what? 285 eBay feedback linked to these sales? It's not like there are 10,000 feedback and compared to 10 Million books graded, it's not an insurmountable obstacle to resolve by CGC. 

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/21/2023 at 4:53 PM, GDN said:

I'm not touching a blue label 181 with a 10 foot pole going forward.  I wonder how many are out there without the MVS?

Being a "raw comics" (I really don't like that term, but we're stuck with it) person myself, here's where I would normally say, "Buy it ungraded!" but in a case like Hulk 181 I wonder how many raw copies are out there in high grades that haven't been slabbed. It seems like anyone who wants to actually check the inside pages of a high end book before they purchase it these days is going to be out of luck, because slabs are often the only game in town.

[VintageComics]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:55 PM, sledgehammer said:

 

Roy, what you said repeatedly, was that they would check for the insert if the submitter wanted  reholdering..

I'm the one that said he would have had to submit it for grading, which would have made it more likely that CGC would have discovered that it was now a lower grade copy in his submitted slabs.

 

Yep, me too.

I know what I said, and others believe the same thing that I do.

From my experience, I was under the impression a reholder meant a proper reholder and had no reason to believe otherwise and I assume that if there's a mistake with the interior of the book that the interior would get checked, like in the case of the MJ insert. 

I am pretty meticulous in areas that call for it and expect the same but I also have stated that I'm happy to be wrong, so I'm not sure what your point is?

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by VintageComics

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

I need some help here just cause my glasses wearing stupid eyes can't confirm.

The asm 194 9.8 Briva sold on 10/3/23 and the second set of pics is a 9.6 that sold on ebay on 4/29/23 

Wrap is the same, notch below the bar code is the same, the mark on back is the same (although it does appear on at least 1 other book) 

but the giveaway to me is the top, you can see in the hi-res photos that it has some red spray, and you can faintly see it in the 9.6 - BUT the white notch is in the same spot above the "CS" in Marvel comics group

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by WestcoastDAVEngers

[bsmith]

7 year lurker, but didn't see anyone else talking about this so....

Here is an old ebay listing of an Incredible Hulk #181 8.5. It sold in 2021. The ebay user "Zaneglor" had their account closed since then.

https://mavin.io/item/Incredible-Hulk-%23-181-cgc-8.5-Stan-Lee%2C1-st-Wolverine-Movie-coming-180-x%3Dmen?itemId=255118082750&q=X-men %23181

If you search the serial number on GPA, it sold (twice) in 2021, assumingly by this ebay user. It also sold Sept 13 2020 on Heritage. 

Again, this is clearly a different book and this guy has been doing it for years.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/bronze-age-1970-1979-/superhero/the-incredible-hulk-181-marvel-1974-cgc-vf-85-off-white-to-white-pages/a/122037-13267.s

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:22 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

I need some help here just cause my glasses wearing stupid eyes can't confirm.

The asm 194 9.8 Briva sold on 10/3/23 and the second set of pics is a 9.6 that sold on ebay on 4/29/23 

Wrap is the same, notch below the bar code is the same, the mark on back is the same (although it does appear on at least 1 other book) 

but the giveaway to me is the top, you can see in the hi-res photos that it has some red spray, and you can faintly see it in the 9.6 - BUT the white notch is in the same spot above the "CS" in Marvel comics group

 

Nothing nefarious about a 9.6 becoming a 9.8 on a resub.  

[trademarkcomics]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:22 PM, WestcoastDAVEngers said:

I need some help here just cause my glasses wearing stupid eyes can't confirm.

The asm 194 9.8 Briva sold on 10/3/23 and the second set of pics is a 9.6 that sold on ebay on 4/29/23 

Wrap is the same, notch below the bar code is the same, the mark on back is the same (although it does appear on at least 1 other book) 

but the giveaway to me is the top, you can see in the hi-res photos that it has some red spray, and you can faintly see it in the 9.6 - BUT the white notch is in the same spot above the "CS" in Marvel comics group

 

Not saying this isn't more of their nefariousness, but I myself have sent in older case books for a press and a regrade. 

 

But carry on...

[Lightning55]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:14 PM, Happy Noodle Boy said:

I keep hearing this every time there's a scandal, but people seem to keep on going back to CGC anyway. I don't think they ever lose any business at all.

 

 

I hope it deters some people from submitting. My TAT'S will improve. 

At the value strata I work with, none of this has any impact. 

[WestcoastDAVEngers]

Totally understand that, but everything about this dude is nefarious. Just need to keep digging!

[RonS2112]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:01 PM, drotto said:

We are way past popcorn at this point.  Break out the alcohol. 

Seriously though, why?  There are those of us here with a minimal number of slabs for precisely this reason.  If you: a) are able to competently grade a book, and b) have a network of sellers you work with who can also competently grade and offer fair deals and c) you are able to work with these people to reach mutually agreeable deals on books, then there's no need for CGC or slabbed books.  So for those of us to whom this applies, this is all theater and will result in a great buying opportunity for a lot of the books in question.

[Prince Namor]

Reputable dealer is a subjective term. I'm sure there were people who felt THAT guy was reputable at one point.

 

 

 

[sledgehammer]

On 12/21/2023 at 5:38 PM, Prince Namor said:

Reputable dealer is a subjective term. I'm sure there were people who felt THAT guy was reputable at one point.

if someone had bought that ASM 252, 9.8 with the MJ insert, in an auction on comic link, does anybody think that they would not have been SOOL?

[Axelrod]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:29 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Nothing nefarious about a 9.6 becoming a 9.8 on a resub.  

If it was a re-sub wouldn't it keep the same number?

And if you're saying, well, he could have cracked it out and re-submitted it legitimately just hoping for a better grade...remember who we are talking about now?