ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[comicwiz]

This is a 9.4 to 9.8 ASM 238

Remarkable details on this is that the 4235257005 ASM 238 9.8 - Sold 8/13/23 for $3019 AND also Sold 8/1/23 for $2850 (GD: 07/10/2023)

Distinguishing characteristic: after seeing the spine wear on the top tine of the top staple, I was able to essentially match this up to the 9.4 @agamoto was able to provide larger and clearer pics on.

4108422002 ASM 238 - 9.4

4235257005 ASM 238 9.8

Edited December 27, 2023 by comicwiz

[agamoto]

@darkstar

So one of the two books you're talking about just got spiked by @comicwiz

Did you want to revise your speculation on what happened to that submission group before one of us finds the match for the ASM 252 in that same submission group?

[mephistopheles]

 

[comicwiz]

4108422002 ASM 238 - Sold for $999 on Apr 2, 2023 (GD: 08/12/2022)

@agamotothanks for the great pics!

 

Became

↳ 4235257005 ASM 238 9.8 - Sold 8/13/23 for $3019 (GD: 07/10/2023)

also Sold 8/1/23 for $2850

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by comicwiz

[Prince Namor]

On 12/27/2023 at 10:44 AM, VintageComics said:

There are lots of people that spot raw 9.8s and there always has been. Like anything, some people are just better at it than others and high grade collectors tend to be very picky and train their eyes to spot such things. 

Without question. However, over the last 2 years or so, I've seen many expert graders who could predict with 95+% certantity what they were going to get in a submission, become suddenly baffled at the inconsistency that CGC has shown and yet... others... like whoever is doing this current scam, keep getting those gift 9.8 grades. It doesn't add up. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Prince Namor

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:54 PM, darkstar said:

I think the original 6 book order was re-submitted as mechanical errors. The 238 and 252 were sent to CCS, because they didn't pass inspection and were sent for re-grading, which is why their cert pages have grade dates months later, 7/10, instead of the same date as the rest of the order, 4/12.

If you read the posts in the link below starting with the post by Ramithard on Feb 23 you will see this boardie sent a book in for a mechanical error that ended up going to CCS, even though the boardie didn't request or pay for that service. CGC chose to do that on their own, which ended up delaying the simple mechanical error for months. 

Going back to the 238 and 252 the images on their cert pages likely aren't of the books that were graded 9.8 by CGC. Those books, or more likely the labels, were swapped into lesser grade slabs and then submitted to CGC as reholders or mechanical errors - due to case damage or label error. If at intake the books were deemed to not require re-grading then they were sent off to be slabbed, scanned, and shipped - which means the latest scans on the cert page are of a different book than what was originally graded. There is no way CGC is dedicating the manpower to reholders or MEs to the point that every book is being inspected closely to see that it matches the grade assigned on the slab. So unless it is obvious that the case has been compromised or that the book has incurred additional damage since grading then that book isn't going to be subjected to grading again.  

Your post reads like I don't think there is anything wrong going on here, which is obviously not true. This is definitely a big bowl of fraud, but I don't see how anyone at CGC could be knowingly involved. The sheer volume of books CGC receives, not to mention how many orders the scammer has submitted, pretty much eliminates the possibility that one person at CGC could effectively control all of the fraud books at receiving and then steer them through the entire process while at CGC.

Everything you say makes sense (if the scammer is a pro at opening and welding back cases without detection). The biggest issue I have with CGC is how in the world do they re-holder several 9.8 graded books and give the Mark Jeweler designation without opening the inner well first to check? Like I've mentioned before, a Youtuber noted that CGC told him he couldn't use the reholdering service to add a newsstand designation (he wasn't the original submitter), and would need to regrade the book instead. If that's the case, then how could this scammer get CGC to reholder his books to add the Mark Jeweler designation without inspecting the inner well first? At minimum this should've raised a red flag for the reholdering department because 9.8 Mark Jewelers are rare and command a premium. Did CGC even mention to the guy that they would have to overcharge him because the book is now worth over $10k? If the previous submitter was using a cheaper service the first time around for his regular newsstand copy, shouldn't CGC automatically regrade the book because high grade Mark Jewelers command a lot more? 

Honestly, in this scenario CGC should not even give the submitter a chance to get the book back without them inspecting it first (once there is any suspicion). If their recommendation is to open the inner well to ensure there's actually a Mark Jeweler insert in there, they should go ahead and do it anyway. They can't just send the book back to the guy, especially if it had additional defects like the ASM #252 book, and let it be someone else's problem.  My gut tells me that at minimum, the guy found a deep pocketed customer pleaser at CGC who believed his every word and would streamline these reholder requests for him without question. 

[agamoto]

@skybolt The scenario darkstar is describing is entirely possible, except @comicwiz just demonstrated that's not what happened at al, specifically with the ASM 238 from that submission group that I'm arguing with him about. He just located the original book that got sent in to become the 9.8 in this reholder/custom label scam. 

It's pretty obvious to me the other re-dated book in that submission group, the ASM 252 CPV, is also not even close to a 9.8 either... We just haven't found the donor book yet. 

[boreds]

You have to figure many books he's either buying raw or locally at conventions or dealers. I'm surprised he'd bother going to the effort of buying a 9.4 blue label when a high grade raw copy would be cheaper. However I guess in this case he wants to submit books that are within "range" of a 9.8, and can get past CGC quality control. However in many of these cases the books obviously never looked like a 9.8. 

I guess he never had the balls to try the scam with a 9.9 or 10.0. Imagine if he had stooped to those levels of the market?

Edited December 27, 2023 by boreds

[darkstar]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:35 PM, skybolt said:

Everything you say makes sense (if the scammer is a pro at opening and welding back cases without detection). The biggest issue I have with CGC is how in the world do they re-holder several 9.8 graded books and give the Mark Jeweler designation without opening the inner well first to check? Like I've mentioned before, a Youtuber noted that CGC told him he couldn't use the reholdering service to add a newsstand designation (he wasn't the original submitter), and would need to regrade the book instead. If that's the case, then how could this scammer get CGC to reholder his books to add the Mark Jeweler designation without inspecting the inner well first? At minimum this should've raised a red flag for the reholdering department because 9.8 Mark Jewelers are rare and command a premium. Did CGC even mention to the guy that they would have to overcharge him because the book is now worth over $10k? If the previous submitter was using a cheaper service the first time around for his regular newsstand copy, shouldn't CGC automatically regrade the book because high grade Mark Jewelers command a lot more? 

Honestly, in this scenario CGC should not even give the submitter a chance to get the book back without them inspecting it first (once there is any suspicion). If their recommendation is to open the inner well to ensure there's actually a Mark Jeweler insert in there, they should go ahead and do it anyway. They can't just send the book back to the guy, especially if it had additional defects like the ASM #252 book, and let it be someone else's problem.  My gut tells me that at minimum, the guy found a deep pocketed customer pleaser at CGC who believed his every word and would streamline these reholder requests for him without question. 

A reholder isn't the same thing as a mechanical error. If you submit a Mark Jeweler copy and CGC grades it but does not note it on the label you can re-submit it as a mechanical error as long as you make the request within the 2 weeks or whatever it is from the time it was delivered. 

[Nick Furious]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:06 PM, boreds said:

You have to figure many books he's either buying raw or locally at conventions or dealers.

In hindsight, none of the books, either the originals or the substitutions, should have been purchased online by the perpetrator.  But working only with "locally sourced material" would have severely limited the inventory and the scope of the operation.  

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 7:54 PM, darkstar said:

I think the original 6 book order was re-submitted as mechanical errors. The 238 and 252 were sent to CCS, because they didn't pass inspection and were sent for re-grading, which is why their cert pages have grade dates months later, 7/10, instead of the same date as the rest of the order, 4/12.

If you read the posts in the link below starting with the post by Ramithard on Feb 23 you will see this boardie sent a book in for a mechanical error that ended up going to CCS, even though the boardie didn't request or pay for that service. CGC chose to do that on their own, which ended up delaying the simple mechanical error for months. 

Going back to the 238 and 252 the images on their cert pages likely aren't of the books that were graded 9.8 by CGC. Those books, or more likely the labels, were swapped into lesser grade slabs and then submitted to CGC as reholders or mechanical errors - due to case damage or label error. If at intake the books were deemed to not require re-grading then they were sent off to be slabbed, scanned, and shipped - which means the latest scans on the cert page are of a different book than what was originally graded. There is no way CGC is dedicating the manpower to reholders or MEs to the point that every book is being inspected closely to see that it matches the grade assigned on the slab. So unless it is obvious that the case has been compromised or that the book has incurred additional damage since grading then that book isn't going to be subjected to grading again.  

Your post reads like I don't think there is anything wrong going on here, which is obviously not true. This is definitely a big bowl of fraud, but I don't see how anyone at CGC could be knowingly involved. The sheer volume of books CGC receives, not to mention how many orders the scammer has submitted, pretty much eliminates the possibility that one person at CGC could effectively control all of the fraud books at receiving and then steer them through the entire process while at CGC.

"I think the original 6 book order was re-submitted as mechanical errors."

What is it that makes you think that?

The 423525700x series is 6 books. WIth the exception of 4235257004, which is a 9.6 238 Direct Market, all the rest are listed in the census as 9.8 books. 

Only 7001 and 7005 have images in the census and have custom labels. Both with graded dates on 7/10 instead of 4/12 like the others.

Your position is that they were sent to CCS for some unspecified errors and that's why the grade dates are 3+ months later.

The book that would later be proven here to become 4235257005 has been proven to actually be a 9.4 book sold by another seller on ebay, almost certainly to our perp, on 4/2/2023.

Do you think it's likely that our perp received the book in time from his ebay seller, and had it added to his submission and shipped to CGC from either Phoenix, NJ or NY, had it looked at by graders on 4/12/2023 and then sent to CCS automatically?

I think it's more likely he sent a different book in to get graded on 4/12 as 4235257005, and then sent it back to CGC with a swapped label so they could "correct" their records or give him the custom label he wanted. 

In any event, he got a 9.8 grade on a book that I can't even believe got a 9.4 given the severity of that staple creasing. 

Either way, we're both still speculating. 

 

 

 

 

[skybolt]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:10 PM, darkstar said:

A reholder isn't the same thing as a mechanical error. If you submit a Mark Jeweler copy and CGC grades it but does not note it on the label you can re-submit it as a mechanical error as long as you make the request within the 2 weeks or whatever it is from the time it was delivered. 

They would still need to open the inner well to check. It's not like they missed a newsstand designation. I was also under the impression that he purchased the original 9.8 copies and wasn't the original submitter on all of them. You can't do mechanical errors unless you were the original submitter.

[darkstar]

On 12/26/2023 at 10:23 PM, agamoto said:

@darkstar

So one of the two books you're talking about just got spiked by @comicwiz

Did you want to revise your speculation on what happened to that submission group before one of us finds the match for the ASM 252 in that same submission group?

Revise what speculation? I provided a reason for the discrepancy in grade dates for books that were part of the same order. Again your language seems to indicate that I am denying the accusation that the book in the 9.8 isn't actually a 9.8, when that has never been my position and I'm getting tired of correcting you regarding that. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:50 PM, jsilverjanet said:

what was that little catchphrase they had a few years ago

"but we didn't have to" or something like that

 

"Which we did not have to do.."

 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/26/2023 at 11:16 PM, skybolt said:

They would still need to open the inner well to check. It's not like they missed a newsstand designation. I was also under the impression that he purchased the original 9.8 copies and wasn't the original submitter on all of them. You can't do mechanical errors unless you were the original submitter.

This changed about a year or so ago I think..,

[agamoto]

On 12/26/2023 at 9:21 PM, darkstar said:

Revise what speculation? I provided a reason for the discrepancy in grade dates for books that were part of the same order. Again your language seems to indicate that I am denying the accusation that the book in the 9.8 isn't actually a 9.8, when that has never been my position and I'm getting tired of correcting you regarding that. 

You're correcting me for something I never said or even implied. I am simply pointing out that your explanation as to why the dates are as they are doesn't make a lot of sense when stacked against the weight of all the over evidence falling out from this CGC nuclear explosion. Disengaging and deescalating right now as NONE of us should be arguing with one another. None of us are the bad guy. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:29 AM, Iconic1s said:

This changed about a year or so ago I think..,

Beat me to it. Someday I'm going to win one of these posting races.

[Stefan_W]

I look at things from a different angle than where this discussion is currently at, probably because I do crack and resubs myself. The interesting part from my perspective is the process the scammer used and I see a couple of options that are not mutually exclusive. Below is my current working theory so take it for what it is. 

First option - if the scammer is keeping the cracked case after the swaperoo he may claim that book was damaged during shipping, which would fall under an ME. The reholder would have the 9.8 grade with the swapped in copy being encapsulated. This could be a part of the scam but I dont think it is viable as a long term option for the scammer because tampering is pretty easy to spot and will be noticed especially when done with multiple books. 

Second option - if the scammer has a supply of counterfeit holders he could put the book into a clean case and seal it. Since there is no damage on that case he could use the custom label option and claim he wants the book reholdered to add the custom label. 

The hardest part to figure out (at least for me) specific to the second option was why the person would send in a book for a reslab when they could just sell direct after the swap. It came to me that the person wanted the new copy imaged by CGC and appearing on their web page. That way if someone questions a tick or whatever in a 9.8 copy, and check the certification number on CGC's web site, they would find the book there with the 9.8 grade. The gist of it, if this theory is correct, is that the scammer is taking advantage of three new positive changes (custom labels, imaging all slabs, and allowing people to check the books through certification number for free) to help the scam work. 

The corollary I would add which is far more speculative is that this is just the current method. Scammers like this find angles within any system and he may well have figure out different ways to scam the comic community prior to the what we know about right now.   

[agamoto]

"and check the certification number on CGC's web site, they would find the book there with the 9.8 grade."

Bingo! 

In the interactions with the dude that we've heard about, that's exactly the card he's played... "But but... it's the grade CGC gave it." 

 

[Yorick]

That last ASM238 9.4 upgraded to 9.8 could simply be a crack out and send to CCS for pressing (maybe use that label later down the line).  It is the same book by my eye, but CGC allows spine ticks on 9.8s.

If the first copy in 9.4 did not indicate that it had tattooz, then I'd add it to the fraud list.  BUT, the case shows it was a tattooz book.