Can anyone provide the Clift notes on the CGC case tampering incident? 4 4

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:19 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I think your right  

The problem with that thought is proving to the public "that particular safety feature" is now in place, when it is one that should have always been there.

I've heard rumor that for "belief" a lot of people need something they can hold or see with their own eyes, in this case trust will have to be earned back.

You're not wrong and maybe the monetary promise in the "guarantee" will smooth it over somewhat, but having also heard of youtubers, I just don't know if that will suffice. 

Most Youtubers will go doom and gloom, but end their videos with "I am sure CGC will do the right thing and restore confidence in the hobby."

Because without CGC they wont get future clicks.

[Flanders82]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:04 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

You can fix this issue in 5 minutes with just a pair of working eyes and someone who can follow basic protocols.

That won't fix the issue at all. The main issue is that there are thousands of slabs out there that don't need to go back through CGC to have anything verified. It's easy to swap books and labels without ever having CGC involved in the grading process. If I have any duplicate comics within a certain grade range I can swap the labels from a universal book to a restored or qualified book. I then have a restored or qualified book in a case that shows no signs of tampering in a universal slab that I sell. I then take the universal book and sell it raw or have it graded by CGC or another grading company. 

The fact that the label is not attached to the inner well with the comic and that the slab is so easy to open without any signs of tampering, is the issue that you and others are  failing to address.  Once again CGC doesn't have to be involved in the process after the initial grading and no reholder is necessary for buyer's to be scammed. 

Even on higher end books, it appears easy to swap a replica with an original due to the lack of security features on an extremely poorly designed slab. I'm not sure how you're failing to see this, as it's a far bigger issue than a single seller committing fraud. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Flanders82

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:27 PM, Flanders82 said:

I can swap the labels from a universal book to a restored or qualified book. I then have a restored or qualified book in a case that shows no signs of tampering in a universal slab that I sell.

I would like to see a video of you doing this and pictures of the books before and after. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:27 PM, Flanders82 said:

That won't fix the issue at all. The main issue is that there are thousands of slabs out there that don't need to go back through CGC to have anything verified. It's easy to swap books and labels without ever having CGC involved in the grading process. If I have any duplicate comics within a certain grade range I can swap the labels from a universal book to a restored or qualified book. I then have a restored or qualified book in a case that shows no signs of tampering in a universal slab that I sell. I then take the universal book and sell it raw or have it graded by CGC or another grading company. 

The fact that the label is not attached to the inner well with the comic and that the slab is so easy to open without any signs of tampering, is the issue that you and others are  failing to address.  Once again CGC doesn't have to be involved in the process after the initial grading and no reholder is necessary for buyer's to be scammed. 

Even on higher end books, it appears easy to swap a replica with an original due to the lack of security features on an extremely poorly designed slab. I'm not sure how you're failing to see this, as it's a far bigger issue than a single seller committing fraud. 

so I missed it, why did the person resend it to cgc in the 1st place if he didn't "have too" for the holder to not look broken out?

Where is the proof of that?

[ADAMANTIUM]

I think you're confusing swapping within the tamperproof case that it fooled the "eyes of whoever worked at CGC"

But did he do that for his own good health? and repeatedly? that it ended up getting him caught due to CGC scanning the book?

That doesn't make sense at all

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 12/30/2023 at 11:41 AM, batman_fan said:

 

Can anyone provide the Clift notes on the CGC case tampering incident?

 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:27 PM, Flanders82 said:

That won't fix the issue at all. The main issue is that there are thousands of slabs out there that don't need to go back through CGC to have anything verified. It's easy to swap books and labels without ever having CGC involved in the grading process. If I have any duplicate comics within a certain grade range I can swap the labels from a universal book to a restored or qualified book. I then have a restored or qualified book in a case that shows no signs of tampering in a universal slab that I sell. I then take the universal book and sell it raw or have it graded by CGC or another grading company. 

The fact that the label is not attached to the inner well with the comic and that the slab is so easy to open without any signs of tampering, is the issue that you and others are  failing to address.  Once again CGC doesn't have to be involved in the process after the initial grading and no reholder is necessary for buyer's to be scammed. 

Even on higher end books, it appears easy to swap a replica with an original due to the lack of security features of an extremely poorly designed slab. I'm not sure how you're failing to see this, as it's a far bigger issue than a single seller committing fraud. 

Please show us all how you can do this.

This generation CGC case has been out for almost 9 years now, but now all of sudden its the easy process to swap out books.  Ummm no

No video has been produced yet that shows a perfect example of what you are so confident is happening.

[Imperare]

I would also like to see a video of this, perhaps showing that it can’t be done.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Imperare

[batman_fan]

Is there a potential market for providing fake Newton rings 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:02 PM, batman_fan said:

Is there a potential market for providing fake Newton rings 

This one always looked a little suspicious to me..

[Silver Surfer]

On 12/30/2023 at 3:42 PM, Gambold Vintage said:

There is a lot of screaming and breast-beating going on about this all over YouTube and various forums.  Obviously this is an issue for super-high grade comics that are traded like commodities on the market.  The impact on collectors and dealers who invest in such cannot be denied.  It should be noted, however, that the vast majority of collectors who own slabbed comics will be unaffected...because they own slabs that are not super high grades of "commodity comics" like IH181. 

So before you go running to your CGC box and start scanning for tampering, ask yourself if anyone would bother swapping out your sub 9.4 grade GA or SA or BA issues. The short answer is no, they wouldn't. The payback simply isn't there. This is limited to the ability to scam, for example, a 9.8 grade off a 9.2 comic that already has a very high market value. To engage in this practice you've got to have a lot of $$ upfront, the ability to tamper with CGC holders successfully, and the willingness to risk getting nailed by CGC and likely the Feds for wire fraud (for which the penalties are very unpleasant).

I won't call it a mountain out of molehill, because I know some collectors and dealers are going to be hurt by this. I sincerely hope they will be able to get satisfaction from CGC. I will also point out that they comprise a very small percentage of CGC-slabbed comic owners. The rest of us should be sympathetic, but not worry about it. 

Happy Collecting, Gambold
 

 

Mmmh can't say I agree with of lot of this. A Qualified IH 181 in 8.5 appears to have been swamped out into s 9.0 blue label and that's just what we know of. Based on this guys MO if he is making 2,3, 5 times his money I think he would be cranking out as many books as possible. Grading fees are nothing considering that one $15K scam sale could probably pay for the next 100 submissions. Didn't someone point out that just one submission, in 2019, had 25 high grade books in it (have no idea how they figure that out) so assume that there could be thousands of books affected. CGC might try to scare this guy with a PI or lawyer letters but really can they prove that he manipulated the books himself, not likely. So unless someone with first hand knowledge flips, nothing will happen to this guy other than a direct ban of their services. 

[Tnexus]

On 12/30/2023 at 4:25 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Can you show me?  So far no one has but apparently its easy and impossible to tell.

It looks like the videos have been pulled. I won't go into detail here for obvious reasons, but it was scary how low tech it was to remove the inner well was from the outer well.

[Murphman13]

Have any other pre-copper age books been discovered other than Hulk 181?

[Math Teacher]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:27 PM, Flanders82 said:

That won't fix the issue at all. The main issue is that there are thousands of slabs out there that don't need to go back through CGC to have anything verified. It's easy to swap books and labels without ever having CGC involved in the grading process. If I have any duplicate comics within a certain grade range I can swap the labels from a universal book to a restored or qualified book. I then have a restored or qualified book in a case that shows no signs of tampering in a universal slab that I sell. I then take the universal book and sell it raw or have it graded by CGC or another grading company. 

The fact that the label is not attached to the inner well with the comic and that the slab is so easy to open without any signs of tampering, is the issue that you and others are  failing to address.  Once again CGC doesn't have to be involved in the process after the initial grading and no reholder is necessary for buyer's to be scammed. 

Even on higher end books, it appears easy to swap a replica with an original due to the lack of security features on an extremely poorly designed slab. I'm not sure how you're failing to see this, as it's a far bigger issue than a single seller committing fraud. 

I, too, would like you to demonstrate how this can be done.

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 12/30/2023 at 8:57 PM, Math Teacher said:

I, too, would like you to demonstrate how this can be done.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1YS5-hx5ze/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[Flanders82]

On 12/30/2023 at 7:57 PM, Math Teacher said:

I, too, would like you to demonstrate how this can be done.

You and me both. I'm sure another youtuber will come along to show how it can be done flawlessly. I'll post their video when it shows up. The one posted above that's both on Instagram and Youtube seems a bit rushed and the guy could use better tools, maybe plastic instead of metal, to pry the case open.  

Edited December 31, 2023 by Flanders82

[Imperare]

It seems that the video circulating shows that it’s theoretically possible to book swap well enough to fool someone, be it CGC or a potential buyer. Unless we’re suggesting that the scammer used another method?

[AbsoluteCarnage]

If you do read the entire thread make sure to stay tuned to the multiple ' Hey guys. I haven't read the thread yet ..... but what I think is happening is they're switching out the labels not the books" Think we got 4-5 of those in the thread. The Easter Eggs of the thread. No real reward though. Actually you'll get a no-prize.

Edited December 31, 2023 by AbsoluteCarnage

[Dr. Balls]

I AM THE CLIFT COMMANDER!

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 12/31/2023 at 7:57 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I AM THE CLIFT COMMANDER!

Our merciless leader!