AF #15 CGC 9.0 on the 'link

[Timulty]

Any book worth more than $10k I would personally take to CGC and wait for it to be graded.

You guys are too paranoid, and $10K isn't a high enough amount to justify the inconvenience and lost time. I've had no problems with $10K+ books that I've shipped to CGC for grading. Now, if I had a $100K book...

 

Depends on where you are. Its an easy flight for me to FL to go there and back if I needed to, or a show where CGC is doing on-site grading. And the likelihood is that I would have several high dollar books for them to grade so the time investment is worth it. Plus frequent flyer miles and maybe good looking flight attendants on Hooters Air!

 

You know, I am definitely in the wrong business. As to the issue, I agree with Mark on this. Over 10K, better get the cert. I think, before a purchase of that size, I would have a 3rd part look over the book. Well, maybe at 15K anyway.

[blazingbob]

Fantastic Four # 1

9.6 1

9.4 3

9.2 1

9.0 0

 

This is what the correct census on FF #1 should be.

 

Why would you compare FF #1 to AF #15? FF #1 is Marvel's Start of the Silver age, AF #15 is not.

 

The Start of the Silver Age warrants a higher price than the character in it? I think it's important to weigh both the character and importance of the issue. Flash doesn't cut it. There are other DC keys that I think are much better and better keys to own than Showcase #4.

 

3 out of 4 Showcase #4's are owned by dealers.

 

If I compare other DC keys to other Marvel keys there would be significant differences in the number of grades. Where have I said that I felt DC #1's were as common as Marvel #1's?

 

To one other comment = Jealous, I think not. This is the same response I got from another dealer who I felt buried a certain coin dealer in the Showcase #9 9.2.

 

Hmmm, collectors really want that book.

 

Grumpy and nasty, Yes I am. When I see a dealer hyping a genre or slamming a market that he has very little invested in and clearly has an agenda.

 

Mark, You like Golden Age, you specialize in Golden Age and you have a vested interest in Golden Age. So when somebody prices a 9.2 Silver Age key at close to what you could have bought the 9.4 at I wonder why? And then choses to comment on a market that he has very little into. And from a "new" dealer who doesn't setup at shows. And yes, I specialize in mostly High Grade Silver Age Marvel/DC. But I have also sold Golden Age keys and quite frankly am very concerned about the Age factor of those collectors. And the fact that Golden Age runs are very very expensive to put together. I don't know of too many "new" collectors who want to start a Batman run from 1-400, Action 1-500, Detective 27-450.

[jkc313]

Hey Grumpy. Long time. Bob is accurate as to the age of GA collectors but what do others see as far as ages of investors? Hell, I'm 54 now and am too young to be lumped in with GA collectors. Personally, when I look at gorgeous CGC mid graded Timelys selling at or near Guide I think they're a steal. Same with higher graded GA DCs. As Bob also points out, scarcity does not a high price bring. Marvels are much less scarce but this industry is demand driven and always has been. Good old Atomic Rabbit comes to mind. Gotta be scarcer in any grade than ASM 1 but who wants the thing? Bob, what other SA DC keys would you rather own than Showcase 4? B&B 28 comes to mind as does JLA #1. 8's harder to find than 4 and has always sold quicker in the past. ANd, of course, Showcase 9

keith contarino

[lou_fine]

Welcome to the boards Keith!

 

It's nice to see you here as I certainly missed your columns and market reports that you used to have in the old Overstreet Market Updates.

 

Certainly looking forward to hearing more of your opinions with respect to the current market on these boards here.

[Ghost Town]

Bob, was the 9.0 FF 1 that you're saying is now a 9.4 the Slobodian copy?

 

I'm pretty sure the Slobodian FF #1 was/is a CGC 9.2. I never heard the story of a stolen FF 1; I'm curious to hear that story too.

[Aman619]

Hey Grumpy. Long time. Bob is accurate as to the age of GA collectors but what do others see as far as ages of investors? Hell, I'm 54 now and am too young to be lumped in with GA collectors. Personally, when I look at gorgeous CGC mid graded Timelys selling at or near Guide I think they're a steal. Same with higher graded GA DCs. As Bob also points out, scarcity does not a high price bring. Marvels are much less scarce but this industry is demand driven and always has been. Good old Atomic Rabbit comes to mind. Gotta be scarcer in any grade than ASM 1 but who wants the thing? Bob, what other SA DC keys would you rather own than Showcase 4? B&B 28 comes to mind as does JLA #1. 8's harder to find than 4 and has always sold quicker in the past. ANd, of course, Showcase 9

keith contarino

 

get the party started-----Keith is INNA HOUSE!!!

[COI]

and I remember teh stolen copy story. Isnt it MORE than stolen and generally presumed destroyed, not merely lost?

 

Inquiring minds want to know the whole story behind the stolen high grade FF 1!

 

I'll second that.

[Aman619]

3 out of 4 Showcase #4's are owned by dealers.

 

BAM. like an ace serve at Wimbledon.. I hadnt considered that. methinks that'll be tough to counter, MarK!

 

edied to fix the K.

[COI]

3 out of 4 Showcase #4's are owned by dealers.

 

BAM. like an ace serve at Wimbledon.. I hadnt considered that. methinks that'll be tough to counter, MarK!

 

edied to fix the K.

 

Are Metro and/or Motor City selling? If not, I would consider them in the hands of "collectors', even if those "collectors" are also dealers. The lines are blurred.

 

And when I say "selling", I don't mean entertaining offers. I'm sure most books held by "collectors" are attainable if you're able to throw enough money at them.

[FFB]

3 out of 4 Showcase #4's are owned by dealers.

 

BAM. like an ace serve at Wimbledon.. I hadnt considered that. methinks that'll be tough to counter, MarK!

 

edied to fix the K.

 

Are Metro and/or Motor City selling? If not, I would consider them in the hands of "collectors', even if those "collectors" are also dealers. The lines are blurred.

 

And when I say "selling", I don't mean entertaining offers. I'm sure most books held by "collectors" are attainable if you're able to throw enough money at them.

 

That is exactly the point I was going to make, but figured someone else already had. Mark's CGC 9.2 copy is the only copy on the market. I think Metro and Motor City recognize that the market for mid- to late-1950s DCs (like Showcase and Brave and the Bold) is not now where it will be in a few years. That's why they've got those books and that's why they're not currently selling them. Like anything else, the key to making money is not simply a matter of knowing where the market is today -- it's also about anticipating where the market will be tomorrow.

[Aman619]

I hear you guys, and maybe thats their plan... wait til the market catches up to 'their' values for their copies (150 and 300K was it?). But, IMO, we still come back to the other issues relative to Showcase 4 that relegate it below FF1 in most collector's eyes, or wallets... Its reall important... and far scarver than Marvels....but...

[FFB]

I hear you guys, and maybe thats their plan... wait til the market catches up to 'their' values for their copies (150 and 300K was it?). But, IMO, we still come back to the other issues relative to Showcase 4 that relegate it below FF1 in most collector's eyes, or wallets... Its reall important... and far scarver than Marvels....but...

 

But not enough high grade/high dollar copies have sold in the last decade to generate enough heat around the book to get big spenders to take more notice of it.

 

That's another way of looking at it. Showcase #4's scarcity is both one of its most attractive selling points and also one of its biggest obstacles to achieving the megaprices realized for Marvels like FF#1 and AF#15 that sell in high grade on a relatively regular basis by comparison.

[Aman619]

yeah, again, but that's kinda a backward compliment. Its so scarce so there are very few sales so theres not enough data which depresses demand, or sales? Basically The Flash is great and important, and so's the book, but FF1 and Spidey are greater in more collectors eyes. Unless Flash suddenly is the Real Deal, Showcase 4 will remain a very precious Specialty Act compared to Meat and Potatoes Spidey.

[uclapeterg]

I smell a poll coming.

[jkc313]

Hey again. No one can minimize the importance of Showcase #4. As to it's value, I suspect we're seeing in comics what's been going on in posters the past few years. Prices asked are often perceived to be either replacement prices or "later market" prices. An example, Pulp Fiction true recalled advance was hovering in the $350 range when a few dealers started upping it to what they thought it'd be worth 12 months down the road. It's somewhere around $800 and I expect to see another jump soon. I'm not trying to compare the 2 items just the pricing strategy. Mark has the only high grade copy for sale right now. It's tough in grade. He wants $100K for it knowing he 1. WOn't likely ever replace it and 2. Feels confident it'll be viewed as a reasonable price sometime in the forseeable future. This has remained true for high grade key Silver since the late 70's. The "insane" price I got for an AF 15 of $5500, when it Guided at something around $1400 is laughably low now. Everytime anyone has said comics can't get any more expensive, they've been flat wrong. $100K for this book may very well be viewed as a deal 3 years from now. That said, from an investment standpoint, there are and always have been, many more high grade Marvel collectors than DC. If spending $100K purely for investment, I'd spend it on Marvels or lesser priced HG DC like B&B 28.

keith

[FFB]

If spending $100K purely for investment, I'd spend it on Marvels or lesser priced HG DC like B&B 28.

keith

 

I agree with what you've said in the other parts of your post, but I thought it funny that you should mention B&B28, Keith. That one is even tougher than Showcase 4 in HG. The only 9.4 copy in the census (top census copy) is owned by a crazyman in Hong Kong who would sooner sell you one of his kids than get rid of that book. Of the three 9.0s in the census, one of them is "tainted" by the fact that it is an upgraded/pressed 8.0. That leaves 2 potentially untainted CGC 9.0s that are out there, assuming we're not talking about raw copies, and neither of those is for sale anywhere that I've seen. Also, as someone who has primarily been a Marvel silver age collector for most of my life, my very limited perspective has always been that Showcase #4 is a more important book than B&B28. I'd be interested in hearing why you single that book out as a better investment candidate than Showcase #4?

[COI]

The only 9.4 copy in the census (top census copy) is owned by a crazyman in Hong Kong who would sooner sell you one of his kids than get rid of that book.

 

[lou_fine]

Also, as someone who has primarily been a Marvel silver age collector for most of my life, my very limited perspective has always been that Showcase #4 is a more important book than B&B28. I'd be interested in hearing why you single that book out as a better investment candidate than Showcase #4?

 

 

FFB;

 

Not meaning to speak for Keith here, but my rationale would be the following:

 

Since Showcase #4 guides for $42K while BB #28 guides for only $8,800; I would also feel that the BB #28 would be a far better investment if both was available for the same multiple to guide. In reality, however, I am quite sure that the BB #28 would sell for a much higher mutiple to guide than the Showcase due to the significant spread between the two in the OS guide.

 

I guess the real question is at what multiple does the better deal swing from the BB #28 back to the Showcase #4?

[tth2]

Hey again. No one can minimize the importance of Showcase #4. As to it's value, I suspect we're seeing in comics what's been going on in posters the past few years. Prices asked are often perceived to be either replacement prices or "later market" prices. An example, Pulp Fiction true recalled advance was hovering in the $350 range when a few dealers started upping it to what they thought it'd be worth 12 months down the road. It's somewhere around $800 and I expect to see another jump soon. I'm not trying to compare the 2 items just the pricing strategy. Mark has the only high grade copy for sale right now. It's tough in grade. He wants $100K for it knowing he 1. WOn't likely ever replace it and 2. Feels confident it'll be viewed as a reasonable price sometime in the forseeable future. This has remained true for high grade key Silver since the late 70's. The "insane" price I got for an AF 15 of $5500, when it Guided at something around $1400 is laughably low now. Everytime anyone has said comics can't get any more expensive, they've been flat wrong. $100K for this book may very well be viewed as a deal 3 years from now. That said, from an investment standpoint, there are and always have been, many more high grade Marvel collectors than DC. If spending $100K purely for investment, I'd spend it on Marvels or lesser priced HG DC like B&B 28.

keith

Keith, welcome to the boards! Great to have you here, and I agree with everything you've said in your 2 posts, particularly about B&B 28 ! Hope you'll stick around and provide more insights!

[tth2]

The only 9.4 copy in the census (top census copy) is owned by a crazyman in Hong Kong who would sooner sell you one of his kids than get rid of that book.