AF #15 CGC 9.0 on the 'link

[Aman619]

ooops. right. it was a 9.2 for a ridiculous price. Where is the 9.6?

[lou_fine]

It surprises me Adventure 247 is held in such low esteem. The Legion have one of the most loyal followings among DC collectors, probably surpassed only by Batman and JLA fans. Considering that it kicked off one of the longest running SA teams, is notoriously hard to find in high grade, and is priced at only 4 figures in the OS, I don`t think it has nearly the problem with being fully priced that Showcase 4 does.

 

Tim;

 

In agreement with you that Adventure #247 is currently held in pretty low esteem. This didn't always used to be the case as this book was consistently in the Top 5 for SA and a strong #2 on the DC list for countless years. Seems to have fallen off during the last 10 to 15 years with several books surpassing it in value.

 

A bit surprising since I always enjoyed the early SA appearances of the Legion. I guess it has not been helped by the fact that the Legion has not been able to carry their own series lately with several cancellations in their last few attempts.

[adamstrange]

First on Showcase #4.

 

The 9.4 was for sale, someone could have purchased it while it was up for Sale at Metropolis. $135K and it was yours. It was not sold to an outside collector.

 

The 9.6 was graded by Mike and eventually will be for sale. Mike's a dealer the last time I checked.

 

The 9.2 was previously owned by PGC Mint. It's been offered on Ebay a couple of times and sat at $75,000 for a long time. Yet somehow it has magically appreciated over $50,000 based on it being the only one. How about a collector sale verifying that the book is worth the price? I see this 9.2 only going through dealer hands. If it's so desireable why doesn't a collector step up and buy it? I know of a CGC 7.5 VF- Showcase #4 selling around guide. If it were a FF #1, AF #15 it would be selling for overguide. That tells me while it's a good book it does not command the same premium of other keys. If it were a B&B #28 it would have sold for over guide.

 

To me there are a very limited number of true Silver Age DC keys because of their Golden Age counterparts. Is All American #16, Golden Age Green Lantern #1, Showcase #22 or Green Lantern #1 (Silver Age) the truely desireable #1? Yes I know the difference between the Golden Age Green Lantern and the Silver Age one but Green Lantern is Green Lantern, No? It's not like there's a Golden Age Fantastic Four or Golden Age Spider-man.

 

For me All American #16 represents the better of the Golden Age keys while Showcase #22 to me is by far a scarce and tough key to acquire in 8.0 or better than it's Amazing Spider-man equivalent Green Lantern #1 (Amazing that both #1 covers suck).

 

Having brought a 9.2 Justice League #1, Flash #105 9.2 and a Green Lantern #1 9.0 into the market I know that these keys are tough to find in high grade. If I had to recommend DC Silver Age (#1's) keys my favorites are Brave & the Bold #28, Showcase #22, Justice League #1, Flash #105, Wonder Woman #105. While Showcase #4 to me is a nice book to have I would have to look at more than the fact that it was "first to market" in buying one. And quite frankly I don't find the cover to be that exciting or that good for that matter and I think that has a lot to do with the "selling of the book".

For a Marvel guy, Bob, your DC analysis is spot on. I totally agree, particularly about the Showcase 4 valuations. I would add Adventure 247 into the mix of desirable books too, and not just because I own it. I`ve got a standing offer for my copy if I should ever choose to dispose of it, which indicates there is some demand for HG copies.

 

It's New Years Day and I'm feeling cranky so I'll take a shot at some of the DC Silver keys. For the record, when I started collecting 20 years ago I wanted to own all the major DC and Marvel keys. I now own only 2 of the minor Silver Age keys and none of the Marvel keys.

 

Showcase 4: It's the start of the Silver Age and a historically important comic book as it did lead to B&B 28 and GL and FF. Unfortunately, it's a re-issue of a GA character and its importance has not seeped into the general consciousness of the population. Basically, it requires a bit of time to explain it to someone who's not familiar with comics. Second Flash starts in a book that is not that scarce. Showcase 8 and, to a lesser extent, 14 are much tougher in high grade. I personally expect to see several more 9.x copies added to the census over time. At the price level that the 9.2 Showcase 4 is at, I think there's a tendency for a DC collector to gravitate towards an Action 1 or Tec 27 (even though you would end up with mid/lower grade copy) as those books are more widely known. I was someone who thought that Showcase 4 would always be the most expensive book by far in the SA but I no longer think that way. There is just too much demand for AF15 (and possibly FF 1) and, as the current set of collectors dies off/retires, I think you'll see a permanent re-alignment of ranking. (Four Color 9 used to be as big as Action 1 -- does anyone think we'll see those days again?)

 

Adv 247: Twice the size of the last superhero team-up (World's Finest 71 with Batman and Superman). These early stories are written for the young ones and all quite charming but that's not the characteristic that folks are paying the big bucks for. The early Legions never won their own title and have their stories confusingly scattered among half-a-dozen other series. There have been a couple resurgences of the Legion (the first in the 70s) that created a certain level of demand for the first issue and I expect it to continue.

 

GL 22: I had never heard of or thought about someone confusing the this GL with it's GA counterpart. In general folks were interested in the GA or the SA verson. I do think that there's a diffusion of interest in many of the DC keys due to the try-out issues. For GL you can get the start in Showcase 22, the first issue of his own title in GL 1, and the pre-title issues in Showcase 23 and 24. I'm not sure we've yet finalized what the ratio of price should be between those books and, having four books doesn't make things easier. With a couple exceptions (Spider-man and Ant-Man -- as if anyone cares about him), the Marvels don't have this problem.

 

B&B 28: Twice as many heros as the last super-hero team-up (Legion, see Adv 247) in a series that was a repeat of the Justice Society. I like a lot of Mike Sekowsky's work across the decades, but his art in JL is just . Tim talks about not liking Schomberg's distortion of anatomy but the figures that Sekowsky perpetrates in this series should be illegal. I asked an old-time collector (born in 1950) what was the #1 DC SA key and his answer was Showcase 4. I asked him what the number #2 DC key was and he thought for several minutes before saying B&B 28, which he then qualified by saying it was much lower in importance and pretty similar in importance to Flash 105 or Showcase 22. At the time it came out, it was regarded as cool because you could see the superheros that you read and dreamed about interacting with each other so it carries a lot of nostalgia for a number of collectors. My thought? If you're going to spend big bucks on this why not spend it on the 9.4 or 9.6 copy of All Star 3?

 

DC vs Marvel. There really weren't any big new DC superheros or villains in the SA that have the reasonance of the Marvel characters. Batman and Superman are in lexicon of the general society but Flash, GL, Doom Patrol, Justice League? People have heard of Joker and Catwoman but Kanjar Ro or Starro the Conqueror? There were lots of wonderful new minor characters and re-vamping of some of the GA characters, but no characters like Marvel created: Spider-man, X-Men, Dr. Doom, and The Green Goblin. And the Marvel stories are more like soap operas punctuated with fist-fights, which seem to be more in tune with folks these days than the carefully crafted and artistically restrained stories in DC. Will that always be the case? I don't know. I've actually thought for quite a while that the likes of the population might shift a bit away from the emotionally wrought Marvel stories but there's no sign of it yet that I can see. If tastes did shift, then you'd see quite a rise in the prices of the DC books because the early books are tougher in high grade than the Marvels.

[Aman619]

First on Showcase #4.

 

The 9.4 was for sale, someone could have purchased it while it was up for Sale at Metropolis. $135K and it was yours. It was not sold to an outside collector.

 

The 9.6 was graded by Mike and eventually will be for sale. Mike's a dealer the last time I checked.

 

The 9.2 was previously owned by PGC Mint. It's been offered on Ebay a couple of times and sat at $75,000 for a long time. Yet somehow it has magically appreciated over $50,000 based on it being the only one. How about a collector sale verifying that the book is worth the price? I see this 9.2 only going through dealer hands. If it's so desireable why doesn't a collector step up and buy it? I know of a CGC 7.5 VF- Showcase #4 selling around guide. If it were a FF #1, AF #15 it would be selling for overguide. That tells me while it's a good book it does not command the same premium of other keys. If it were a B&B #28 it would have sold for over guide.

 

To me there are a very limited number of true Silver Age DC keys because of their Golden Age counterparts. Is All American #16, Golden Age Green Lantern #1, Showcase #22 or Green Lantern #1 (Silver Age) the truely desireable #1? Yes I know the difference between the Golden Age Green Lantern and the Silver Age one but Green Lantern is Green Lantern, No? It's not like there's a Golden Age Fantastic Four or Golden Age Spider-man.

 

For me All American #16 represents the better of the Golden Age keys while Showcase #22 to me is by far a scarce and tough key to acquire in 8.0 or better than it's Amazing Spider-man equivalent Green Lantern #1 (Amazing that both #1 covers suck).

 

Having brought a 9.2 Justice League #1, Flash #105 9.2 and a Green Lantern #1 9.0 into the market I know that these keys are tough to find in high grade. If I had to recommend DC Silver Age (#1's) keys my favorites are Brave & the Bold #28, Showcase #22, Justice League #1, Flash #105, Wonder Woman #105. While Showcase #4 to me is a nice book to have I would have to look at more than the fact that it was "first to market" in buying one. And quite frankly I don't find the cover to be that exciting or that good for that matter and I think that has a lot to do with the "selling of the book".

For a Marvel guy, Bob, your DC analysis is spot on. I totally agree, particularly about the Showcase 4 valuations. I would add Adventure 247 into the mix of desirable books too, and not just because I own it. I`ve got a standing offer for my copy if I should ever choose to dispose of it, which indicates there is some demand for HG copies.

 

It's New Years Day and I'm feeling cranky so I'll take a shot at some of the DC Silver keys. For the record, when I started collecting 20 years ago I wanted to own all the major DC and Marvel keys. I now own only 2 of the minor Silver Age keys and none of the Marvel keys.

 

Showcase 4: It's the start of the Silver Age and a historically important comic book as it did lead to B&B 28 and GL and FF. Unfortunately, it's a re-issue of a GA character and its importance has not seeped into the general consciousness of the population. Basically, it requires a bit of time to explain it to someone who's not familiar with comics. Second Flash starts in a book that is not that scarce. Showcase 8 and, to a lesser extent, 14 are much tougher in high grade. I personally expect to see several more 9.x copies added to the census over time. At the price level that the 9.2 Showcase 4 is at, I think there's a tendency for a DC collector to gravitate towards an Action 1 or Tec 27 (even though you would end up with mid/lower grade copy) as those books are more widely known. I was someone who thought that Showcase 4 would always be the most expensive book by far in the SA but I no longer think that way. There is just too much demand for AF15 (and possibly FF 1) and, as the current set of collectors dies off/retires, I think you'll see a permanent re-alignment of ranking. (Four Color 9 used to be as big as Action 1 -- does anyone think we'll see those days again?)

 

Adv 247: Twice the size of the last superhero team-up (World's Finest 71 with Batman and Superman). These early stories are written for the young ones and all quite charming but that's not the characteristic that folks are paying the big bucks for. The early Legions never won their own title and have their stories confusingly scattered among half-a-dozen other series. There have been a couple resurgences of the Legion (the first in the 70s) that created a certain level of demand for the first issue and I expect it to continue.

 

GL 22: I had never heard of or thought about someone confusing the this GL with it's GA counterpart. In general folks were interested in the GA or the SA verson. I do think that there's a diffusion of interest in many of the DC keys due to the try-out issues. For GL you can get the start in Showcase 22, the first issue of his own title in GL 1, and the pre-title issues in Showcase 23 and 24. I'm not sure we've yet finalized what the ratio of price should be between those books and, having four books doesn't make things easier. With a couple exceptions (Spider-man and Ant-Man -- as if anyone cares about him), the Marvels don't have this problem.

 

B&B 28: Twice as many heros as the last super-hero team-up (Legion, see Adv 247) in a series that was a repeat of the Justice Society. I like a lot of Mike Sekowsky's work across the decades, but his art in JL is just . Tim talks about not liking Schomberg's distortion of anatomy but the figures that Sekowsky perpetrates in this series should be illegal. I asked an old-time collector (born in 1950) what was the #1 DC SA key and his answer was Showcase 4. I asked him what the number #2 DC key was and he thought for several minutes before saying B&B 28, which he then qualified by saying it was much lower in importance and pretty similar in importance to Flash 105 or Showcase 22. At the time it came out, it was regarded as cool because you could see the superheros that you read and dreamed about interacting with each other so it carries a lot of nostalgia for a number of collectors. My thought? If you're going to spend big bucks on this why not spend it on the 9.4 or 9.6 copy of All Star 3?

 

DC vs Marvel. There really weren't any big new DC superheros or villains in the SA that have the reasonance of the Marvel characters. Batman and Superman are in lexicon of the general society but Flash, GL, Doom Patrol, Justice League? People have heard of Joker and Catwoman but Kanjar Ro or Starro the Conqueror? There were lots of wonderful new minor characters and re-vamping of some of the GA characters, but no characters like Marvel created: Spider-man, X-Men, Dr. Doom, and The Green Goblin. And the Marvel stories are more like soap operas punctuated with fist-fights, which seem to be more in tune with folks these days than the carefully crafted and artistically restrained stories in DC. Will that always be the case? I don't know. I've actually thought for quite a while that the likes of the population might shift a bit away from the emotionally wrought Marvel stories but there's no sign of it yet that I can see. If tastes did shift, then you'd see quite a rise in the prices of the DC books because the early books are tougher in high grade than the Marvels.

 

very nice summation. especially liked the FourColor 9 reference. Times change. Except, you seen to speak a lot comparing DCs to Marvels. Which explains the general consensus opinion that the Marvel keys are all in gretaer demand than DCs. But there are still plenty of DC collectors, and among US, the question is Which ones are least important, and why, regardless of Spidey and FFs appeal across the board?

 

If you are already a DC collector, why go after SOME of the keys and ignore the others, like 247? also, I just realized you never even mentioned Tec 225!! Its day has REALLY passed by, huh?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

As a Marvel guy, I wondered what the fuss was about and why people paid such stupid money for the book....afterall, wasn't the Flash a GA character? Yes, in time I learned how his reappearance (and subsequent emergence of the JLA) paved the way for the Marvel characters I loved, but I still felt the hype around Showcase # 4 was artifically generated in part by Overstreet and its contributors, and by older collectors who were partial to DC moreso than Marvels.

 

I remember this very debate in the early/mid 1990s....right about when the White Mountain FF 1 and AF 15 brought huge chunks of change at Sothebys. At the time, Showcase # 4 was super hot...so much so that I sold a VG+ copy to Dan at Showcase New England for the handsome sum of $2,700, which you can imagine he flipped for a bit more. I also sold a poorly restored F/VF-ish copy through a dealer a year later in 1994 for $5,000 (or rather, that's what I got out of the deal, what the dealer actually sold it for is beyond me).

 

When I look at GPA, I see that the book has basically gone nowhere in 13 years. In fact, since both my sales were to or through dealers (who had their own mark-up), you can make the case that the book has actually decreased in value (I don't doubt that the restored copy I sold wouldn't fetch half of what I got for if it was in a certified holder and sold in today's market).

 

Yet, mid grade copies of FF 1 and AF 15, which are far more plentiful, continue to escalate in value year to year because the demand is there from the collector base.

 

I understand the importance of "historical significance" (I'm the guy that advocates FF # 3 is nearly as "historically important" as # 1 for multiple reasons I've cited before in other threads)., but at the end of the day, the collecting base votes with their wallets, and the importance of Showcase # 4 wanes with every passing year.

 

1956 is so long ago now, that when younger collectors/readers of the Flash look back most likely don't make the distinction between the GA and SA Flash, and I think for them the line will continue to blur, making Showcase # 4 even less important in the long run.

[skybolt]

I don't know what the market trends will be in the future, but I've certainly enjoyed reading this thread.

[adamstrange]

I just got back from an hour at the gym so I'm feeling less cranky. I put the cranky remark at the top of my prior post so that folks would, hopefully, pick up on the fact that I was playing devil's advocate to the love fest for some of the DC keys. They don't get the respect they deserve, and it's shame, but I have no idea when that might change.

 

I owned and then later sold a high-grade run of ASM, a high grade partial run of FF ( including #1) among other Marvel books so I'm not just a DC collector. I've owned and sold DC keys like Showcase 22 and JLA 1. I don't at this time ever expect to get into owning SA keys from either company. When the crash happens and Tim is panic-selling his books, then I'll be

 

Very nice summation. especially liked the FourColor 9 reference. Times change.

 

The latest general forum has a post about Rozanski's wife owning the Mile High copy of the GA Prince Valiant one-shot. That was a big book at the time. Now? X-men in the 70s was considered a lame title such that it was cancelled. Now?

 

Except, you seen to speak a lot comparing DCs to Marvels. Which explains the general consensus opinion that the Marvel keys are all in gretaer demand than DCs

 

The reason I did some comparision between Marvel and DC was to add my 2 cents to the posts comparing Showcase 4 to various Marvel keys. I also think that the simplicity and smaller number of the Marvel keys help provide a partial explanation of why their price is high relative to the DCs, given that there are more copies in high grade.

 

But there are still plenty of DC collectors, and among US, the question is Which ones are least important, and why

 

Of course it's obvious that Showcase 17 (first appearance of Adam Strange) and Mystery in Space 53 (Infantino becomes the penciller) are the most important books. Doesn't everyone know that? But if you want to discuss the others let's start a separate thread since this one was ostensibly about a AF 15 on Comiclink.

 

If you are already a DC collector, why go after SOME of the keys and ignore the others, like 247?

 

We'll I'm actually a bit of everything collector and still have quite a few 12 cent Marvels and DCs though I haven't bought hardly any 12 centers in a few years, and very few overall in the last 10.

 

I had a chance to buy the Mohawk Valley Adv 247 (the 9.2) from the collector that won the lot at Sotheby's but never pursued it. It seemed like too much money, though it was vastly more reasonable than it would be now. In really high grade, it's a very pretty cover and I've always thought it was great concept for a series since it involved superheros and science fiction. If I could do things over again, sure I would pick it up.

 

also, I just realized you never even mentioned Tec 225!! Its day has REALLY passed by, huh?

 

In any collectibles market, it is possible to create short-term demand by the proper marketing of the artist or the work. Then, because the new owners have so much invested in it, the price level tends to stay the same or drop slowly as other items appreciate faster or depreciate less. My view? I think Tec 225 is a near nothing book that was hyped by people who weren't thinking clearly or had a vested financial interest in it becoming big. Martian Manhunter is a lame character and never inspired much of anything, much less the Silver Age.

 

The big caveat to all my comments is that it's just my opinion. The prices on the books will be determined by the collective set of opinions of folks in the hobby now and those that will join in the future regarding the desirability of actually owning these issues as expressed by the willingness to actually spend the time and dollars to acquire them. The pursuit of comics is irrational making it much easier to explain what has happened than what will happen.

[batman_fan]

I just read this thread (let me say thanks for the very interesting read). Personally, I think the FOUR (thats right FOUR) copies of Showcase 4 in Heritage's auctions should serve as a gauge on how popular this book is. Nothing above a lowly 8.5 (still a decent grade in my opinion), but definitely something for a wide range of collectors seeking different grades.

[Aman619]

 

Quote:

 

If you are already a DC collector, why go after SOME of the keys and ignore the others, like 247?

 

 

 

We'll I'm actually a bit of everything collector and still have quite a few 12 cent Marvels and DCs though I haven't bought hardly any 12 centers in a few years, and very few overall in the last 10.

 

 

 

Adam - - I meant that question a a proverbial 'you', I wasnt questioning YOU at all!! Your colelction is aces and answers any question any of us might have..

[adamstrange]

Quote:

 

If you are already a DC collector, why go after SOME of the keys and ignore the others, like 247?

 

 

 

We'll I'm actually a bit of everything collector and still have quite a few 12 cent Marvels and DCs though I haven't bought hardly any 12 centers in a few years, and very few overall in the last 10.

 

 

 

Adam - - I meant that question a a proverbial 'you', I wasnt questioning YOU at all!! Your colelction is aces and answers any question any of us might have..

 

Well I try to only scan the good ones, not the mistakes!

 

Was your question directed at tth2?

[Aman619]

he big caveat to all my comments is that it's just my opinion. The prices on the books will be determined by the collective set of opinions of folks in the hobby now and those that will join in the future regarding the desirability of actually owning these issues as expressed by the willingness to actually spend the time and dollars to acquire them. The pursuit of comics is irrational making it much easier to explain what has happened than what will happen.

 

that sums it up pretty neatly.

[esquirecomics]

Fantastic Four # 1

9.6 1

9.4 3

9.2 1

9.0 0

 

This is what the correct census on FF #1 should be.

 

Why would you compare FF #1 to AF #15? FF #1 is Marvel's Start of the Silver age, AF #15 is not.

 

The Start of the Silver Age warrants a higher price than the character in it? I think it's important to weigh both the character and importance of the issue. Flash doesn't cut it. There are other DC keys that I think are much better and better keys to own than Showcase #4.

 

3 out of 4 Showcase #4's are owned by dealers.

 

If I compare other DC keys to other Marvel keys there would be significant differences in the number of grades. Where have I said that I felt DC #1's were as common as Marvel #1's?

 

To one other comment = Jealous, I think not. This is the same response I got from another dealer who I felt buried a certain coin dealer in the Showcase #9 9.2.

 

Hmmm, collectors really want that book.

 

Grumpy and nasty, Yes I am. When I see a dealer hyping a genre or slamming a market that he has very little invested in and clearly has an agenda.

 

Mark, You like Golden Age, you specialize in Golden Age and you have a vested interest in Golden Age. So when somebody prices a 9.2 Silver Age key at close to what you could have bought the 9.4 at I wonder why? And then choses to comment on a market that he has very little into. And from a "new" dealer who doesn't setup at shows. And yes, I specialize in mostly High Grade Silver Age Marvel/DC. But I have also sold Golden Age keys and quite frankly am very concerned about the Age factor of those collectors. And the fact that Golden Age runs are very very expensive to put together. I don't know of too many "new" collectors who want to start a Batman run from 1-400, Action 1-500, Detective 27-450.

 

Bob, first off let me wish you and your family a very happy and successful New Year, as well as offer the same sentiments to all other forumites.

 

Second, your rhetoric is nothing but a manufactured argument masquerading something more than what I care to psychologically analyze but there is obviously some deeper frustration. I love it when accusations of agenda are thrown about so casually. If you want to substantively challenge some statement I make or opinion I offer, by all means do so but please at least back it up with logic rather than some low blow swing under the belt. Don't mince words. You believe I have an agenda, go ahead and elaborate.If you have an issue with me, than at least have the professionalism and strength to state what it is rather than hide behind some words that insinuate something derogatory and disingenuous on my part. I admire that you are one of the few dealers, especially with significant experience, on these boards who takes the time to post, offer opinions and respond to comments, but if you want to attack something I said or did then do so from the front, not the back.

 

The 9.2 price is set at what it is, which is high, because I am in no rush to sell it. Everything of course has a price and if a legitimate offer came in (so far I have had an $80,000) offer I would absolutely consider it and assuredly I would negotiate. But the plan was to hold the book for several years to allow it to escalate in its investment value. If it sits for awhile, so be it. I can afford to have that happen. Frankly, this thread, to me, is a debate about value and potential growth, not price. If it was strictly about prices for HG SA (or GA), then we could tick off a number of dealers, including many who post here, whose prices are extremely high when it comes to HG books.

 

I have never "hyp[ed] a genre" or "slam[med] a market". As I have said before, I have serious concerns about the continuing high-priced marketability of many of the key SA books. That is, as I have said, because I feel many additional high quality copies will surface within a reasonable period of time. You cannot prove me wrong at this time and, admitedly, I cannot prove me right. We will need to wait and see what happens over the next few years.

 

And while it is true I do not have a lot invested in the early SA books, those are the books I grew up on. I love those books. I love the stories. I love the characters. I could easily purchase an AF#15 CGC 9.6 or FF# CGC 9.2, but I choose not to for the same reason I do not purchase certain stock. I either see the potential for a downward slide or I think there are better places to direct my funds at this time.

 

Yes, I would much rather own a HG FF#1 or AF#15 in the short term in order to flip it, assuming I could find one at a reasonable price or already had a buyer set, but as an investor (either with my dealer or collector hat on, it really doesn't matter) I do not believe it is a good investment in the long term. I am betting it is for Showcase #4, which I bought b/c of the historical value as much as the dollar value (as well as b/c I simply could), as I do not believe a great number of HG copies (and certainly not compared to the number that will for the books published in 1961-1964) will appear on the scene no matter the amount of time that will pass. Of course, there are any number of factors that could exist that could impact my assessment and prove me wrong. Unknown collections. File copies. Marketability. Hype. Generational fatigue or interest. We shall see.

[esquirecomics]

3 out of 4 Showcase #4's are owned by dealers.

 

BAM. like an ace serve at Wimbledon.. I hadnt considered that. methinks that'll be tough to counter, MarK!

 

edied to fix the K.

 

The counter is somewhat clear. So what? Does this reflect lack of interest? Too high a value?

 

The 9.6 has been in Mike's personal collection for 15 years since he bought it from a collector who I believe was the original owner. He was saving it for retirement but a recent divorce changed that possible equation. I am not sure the 9.4 has ever been offered for open sale by Metro since they picked it up for some absurd low price, as rumor has it (I understand it was located in Europe). The 9.2 I have is the only one that has circulated in recent years. It was offered for sale, particularly through Heritage at least twice and did not meet reserve. That may be an indicator of market saleability or it could simply be a reflection of poor timing. The timing wasn't right for Mark Wilson on this book until I purchased it. Now we wait and see when the timing will be right for me for someone else to purchase it.

[esquirecomics]

I hear you guys, and maybe thats their plan... wait til the market catches up to 'their' values for their copies (150 and 300K was it?). But, IMO, we still come back to the other issues relative to Showcase 4 that relegate it below FF1 in most collector's eyes, or wallets... Its reall important... and far scarver than Marvels....but...

 

But not enough high grade/high dollar copies have sold in the last decade to generate enough heat around the book to get big spenders to take more notice of it.

 

That's another way of looking at it. Showcase #4's scarcity is both one of its most attractive selling points and also one of its biggest obstacles to achieving the megaprices realized for Marvels like FF#1 and AF#15 that sell in high grade on a relatively regular basis by comparison.

 

Astute point and I agree.

[esquirecomics]

Hey again. No one can minimize the importance of Showcase #4. As to it's value, I suspect we're seeing in comics what's been going on in posters the past few years. Prices asked are often perceived to be either replacement prices or "later market" prices. An example, Pulp Fiction true recalled advance was hovering in the $350 range when a few dealers started upping it to what they thought it'd be worth 12 months down the road. It's somewhere around $800 and I expect to see another jump soon. I'm not trying to compare the 2 items just the pricing strategy. Mark has the only high grade copy for sale right now. It's tough in grade. He wants $100K for it knowing he 1. WOn't likely ever replace it and 2. Feels confident it'll be viewed as a reasonable price sometime in the forseeable future. This has remained true for high grade key Silver since the late 70's. The "insane" price I got for an AF 15 of $5500, when it Guided at something around $1400 is laughably low now. Everytime anyone has said comics can't get any more expensive, they've been flat wrong. $100K for this book may very well be viewed as a deal 3 years from now. That said, from an investment standpoint, there are and always have been, many more high grade Marvel collectors than DC. If spending $100K purely for investment, I'd spend it on Marvels or lesser priced HG DC like B&B 28.

keith

 

Keith, a very worthwhile post and substantive observations. Bob could have easily made these same valid points and contributed a great deal without degrading his post with personal attacks.

 

Welcome to the boards, I look forward to more of your posts and opinions!

[esquirecomics]

double BAM - - dats a good one too!

 

Bobs on a roll and I agree with everything above. Im gonna burn my Showcase 4 now too!

 

Sell it to me first!

[ComicBookGuy]

The 9.4 was for sale, someone could have purchased it while it was up for Sale at Metropolis. $135K and it was yours. It was not sold to an outside collector.

 

The 9.6 was graded by Mike and eventually will be for sale. Mike's a dealer the last time I checked.

 

The 9.2 was previously owned by PGC Mint. It's been offered on Ebay a couple of times and sat at $75,000 for a long time. Yet somehow it has magically appreciated over $50,000 based on it being the only one. How about a collector sale verifying that the book is worth the price? I see this 9.2 only going through dealer hands. If it's so desireable why doesn't a collector step up and buy it?

 

Bob, you make some good points and are an asset to the hobby and these boards, but I think this argument you constantly bring up about dealers versus collectors is a fallacy. I don't know of one dealer who isn't a collector, and I know VERY few collectors who occasionally don't sell in some capacity. Apart from Parrino, I don't know of one dealer who didn't start as a collector. About one-third of my dealings are selling and the rest are buying. Does that make me a dealer or collector? There's not a comic I own that I wouldn't sell for the right price. If I had the time and could post my collection up on the web for aggressive prices with the hope that someone will buy and, if they never sold, I could just keep them as a collection, then that would be ideal. (Look at some books on Pedigree now, like the Yellow Submarine, the Star Trek 1, or the Silver Surfer 1 at 9.8 for examples of this kind of selling.) The hobby is changing -- rather, has changed. I can dump my "collection" on eBay or Comiclink or a site I create tomorrow, and my collection becomes "stock." What's the difference between a collector selling his collection and a dealer selling his stock? It's really just semantics, isn't it? Is a dealer someone who simply sells more than he buys?

 

Would anybody ever really buy a book like Showcase 4 or AF 15 for big bucks without the understanding that it could be sold for the same amount or more at some point in the future?

 

And incidentally, I remember you sold your personal FF collection, but do you still have a collection? Just curious.

Hope you and everyone else is having a great New Year.

 

And I echo everyone else when I welcome Keith to the boards. I bought some Bethlehem books from him a few months back and was VERY pleased...

[tth2]

I am not sure the 9.4 has ever been offered for open sale by Metro since they picked it up for some absurd low price, as rumor has it (I understand it was located in Europe).

Metro purchased it from JP. I don`t know what the purchase price was, though, nor am I aware of Metro ever having put it up for sale.

[blazingbob]

My personal collection was sold and used to purchase my home.

 

Doug Schmell is no longer a collector, he is a full time dealer. I can be a "collector" if I need to use that "persona" to buy a collection from a seller who won't sell to a dealer. And if anybody knows me that would be lying, something I'm not fond of doing.

 

I started out collecting in 1973. I bought and sold books in the 70's to upgrade my collection. When I came back into the hobby I did the same thing. But eventually I was buying books to make $$$$. When I look at a book and go this is worth $$$ and I can buy it for $$$ that makes me a Dealer.

 

Without starting a wildfire with this comment if you are buying and selling books with the intent to make $$$$ you are a dealer, plain and simple. It's cut and dry to me. Why buy it if you don't need it? Somebody is going to answer - To buy the books I want for my collection. Well, then you are a dealer competing with me who is running a business. If you paid taxes, setup at the show, advertised and basically operated on the same ground I was I wouldn't be complaining as much. But sadly, I have seen "Dealers" become "collectors" real fast when a deal goes bad or somehow the book is restored and you want your money back.

 

If you are buying and selling the same issue to upgrade your collection you are a collector to me.

 

As far as buying and selling big books go. I would hope that when I sell a customer a big ticket item they make money on it in the long run. Or if they sell it back to me I pay them more than what they bought it for. I am not a person who gets upset that I left some money on the table. I do get upset when a collector chews me down and then flips the book on ebay.

[blazingbob]

Metropolis had the Showcase #4 9.4 up on their website with a Make an offer/Call option. I've held it, looked at it and could have written a check and bought it if I wanted to.