AF #15 CGC 9.0 on the 'link

[Aman619]

Andy --

 

I just see the competition for GA shrinking. It may take a number of years, but I believe by the time we are in our early 40s, the market landscape of GA values and what actually sells -- will change. There's already a number of CGC 9.0/9.2 GA that doesn't sell at guide (and these are Detectives) and I see that trend continuing.

 

which issues are you noticing that cant sell at guide. Cause I see many overpriced 9.0s, 9.2s and 9.4s that sit around, but not fairly priced copies...

[Foolkiller]

Andy --

 

I think OS has consistently upped their values -- but let's assume values have remained flat for the past few years. In the context of this discussion, my understanding is that there's a debate about the value of GA keys v. SA keys... and to me there's no comparison -- SA keys still have room to grow -- in that Marvel Comics #1 is desirable for comic collectors, but I don't think young comic collectors aspire to own this book. I know I sure don't. The only GA books I'd want to own is a run of Captain America Comics, Detective 27, Bats 1, Supes 1, Action 1 -- the rest are all enh to me, and I fully appreciate the history of Marvel #1. The run up on prices in SA though, have given a notion that they are going to keep going up and that's not true forever either. I think these will flatten out, and perhaps even dip a little -- but they will rebound. The market for GA however, will continue to shrink as the younger generation of back issue collectors loses interest in GA. There are some very young GA collectors -- but I perceive them to be in a small minority -- eventually becoming a niche in the larger comic book collecting community.

 

Ask people this, would you rather have a Batman 47 or Batman 251 -- now both are amazing books to me -- but I'm betting if you put both books in front of most collectors for a minute -- forgetting value -- I bet most are picking Bats 251. And that's a factor of the age of most collectors.

 

I think in the thread is Silver Age the new Golden Age, the idea of Gold's future is discussed -- for me -- I personally don't value most Gold that highly --

[Foolkiller]

On ebay a short while ago, there were some 9.2 Detectives (GA) that high starting bids but were below guide. None of them sold to my knowledge.

 

Andy --

 

I just see the competition for GA shrinking. It may take a number of years, but I believe by the time we are in our early 40s, the market landscape of GA values and what actually sells -- will change. There's already a number of CGC 9.0/9.2 GA that doesn't sell at guide (and these are Detectives) and I see that trend continuing.

 

which issues are you noticing that cant sell at guide. Cause I see many overpriced 9.0s, 9.2s and 9.4s that sit around, but not fairly priced copies...

[adamstrange]

So, who commiteed the greater "sin", the dealer who [embarrassing lack of self control] about these collector/dealers? or the collector/dealers who had to LIE in order to get what they wanted from the dealer?

 

Help me out here with the what you are accusing the dealer of doing. Are you concerned that the dealer did something wrong by refusing to sell to Person X instead of Person Y who is a long-standing customer or are you concerned that the dealer would only give a discount to person X when said individual lied?

 

neither. I must not have written it clearly. I was taking Bobs side in complaining about being lied to by someone who claimed to be a collector who then turned around and flipped the book for a profit (including the amount of $ he wheedled in discount posing as a collectyor.

 

In my example I wasnt accusing the dealer of anything other than person_without_enough_empathyhing about it, which I feel is the lesser "sin" here.

 

 

Thanks, that did clarify it!

 

If person_without_enough_empathying is the "sin", then half the boards would be in the hoosegow.

[october]

Silver might be the new golden age, but you have to concede that there is a MUCH larger supply of 60s stuff out there. That fact hurts values now and it will hurt them in the future. Look at what it takes for a silver age key to come anywhere close to the value of a big dollar golden age book. CGC needs to rubber stamp it as some upper echelon grade which also add the nice little ancillary bonus of percieved rarity. When it comes right down to it, silver need a LOT more demand to support its market than gold, because there is simply a ton more of it (I am ignoring obscure gold titles). When there are only 100 copies of any given early golden superhero book, you need only a few hundred interested parties to prop that market up. Unfortunately for silver, there are hundreds and, in most cases, thousands of decent copies out there that need to stay afloat. That takes a much larger fanbase.

 

Honestly, by the time I am 40 (15 years *shudder*) I figure interest in both ages will be largely dead with the exception of the primo books, and I really don't expect either market to experience significant growth between then and now. Do you think that collectors my age (on the cusp of big earning potential) will have as much interest in silver age books as the generation directly older than us? Hulk 181 is our Action 1 and ASM 129 is out Tec 27. I think these markets are pretty much closed outside of a small trickle of fresh blood (like me) and are propped up by people who will be dead or retired in a few decades. On the other hand, if you are looking only at the next ten years or so, I think silver might have some juice left in it after all.

 

I guess I am rooting for the crash to come sooner than later. I want my ECs.

[Aman619]

yeah, but if you get teh casash together, wouldnt you WANT the SA Marvel keys, after your most holy "young guy grails?? That to me is the question posed. Are GA books by and large no longer even desired beyond a handful of issues.

 

 

anyway, I think Fool was only talkinbg about the keys when he talks about future values...

[adamstrange]

On ebay a short while ago, there were some 9.2 Detectives (GA) that high starting bids but were below guide. None of them sold to my knowledge.

 

Andy --

 

I just see the competition for GA shrinking. It may take a number of years, but I believe by the time we are in our early 40s, the market landscape of GA values and what actually sells -- will change. There's already a number of CGC 9.0/9.2 GA that doesn't sell at guide (and these are Detectives) and I see that trend continuing.

 

which issues are you noticing that cant sell at guide. Cause I see many overpriced 9.0s, 9.2s and 9.4s that sit around, but not fairly priced copies...

 

In the GA forum that have been postings regarding guide prices and what sells/doesn't sell in the GA which I would refer you to since I only have time for a brief comment here.

 

I'd love to see links for any of the books you cite, as, in general, CGC Detectives in those grades will typically sell for guide. Not all Tecs are created equal: some pedigrees of certain issues will sell for multiples while other non-pedigrees of others will just hit guide. The percieved accuracy of the CGC grade is also factor, no less than it is for SA. Finally, eBay is not the venue of choice for GA sellers and many books are sold privately, to dealers, and through Heritage as many of the GA buyers are bit too busy to prowl eBay.

 

Regarding the dying off of GA collectors, I'm not so sure the future is quite so gloomy. There are price re-alignments occurring and Overstreet has been very slow to reflect them. Dealers who price to closely to the guide provide at least a partial explanation for the phenomenon you see of books sitting around.

 

I've looked at some of the polls here on age of collectors plus there's my own experience in the time I've been in the hobby. A lot of folks that didn't grow up in the GA still like it. Thse are big comics that look substantial and have a presence that just isn't there in later books (even 50s books ) for some people. I do believe the heyday is over for certain books and titles (I've cited a couple in this thread like Prince Valiant or Four Color 9).

 

I would have so much easier a time if everyone under 50 or 40 or 30 stopped buying GA/Atomic Age. Is there anywhere I could sign a petition encouraging that?

[Foolkiller]

I don't have any links -- and I am relying on memory, so I will be the first to admit that the evidence is questionable.

 

One thing you mentioned though I want to touch on because it's a great point: Ebay is not the chosen venue for most GA collectors and that's something that's lost on a lot of people. Totally agree.

 

But I maintain that GA is not going to have as strong a future as SA and I do see a decline for it in the future.

[october]

yeah, but if you get teh casash together, wouldnt you WANT the SA Marvel keys, after your most holy "young guy grails?? That to me is the question posed. Are GA books by and large no longer even desired beyond a handful of issues.

 

I would want the keys, and a lot more, but I don't think I am at all typical of collectors my age. I think that the vast majority of people interested in silver age and older are 35 and up. Unless something changes, or people are still collecting in the nursing home, that gives the market a shelf life of about 30 years tops.

[ComicBookGuy]

yeah, but if you get teh casash together, wouldnt you WANT the SA Marvel keys, after your most holy "young guy grails?? That to me is the question posed. Are GA books by and large no longer even desired beyond a handful of issues.

 

I would want the keys, and a lot more, but I don't think I am at all typical of collectors my age. I think that the vast majority of people interested in silver age and older are 35 and up. Unless something changes, or people are still collecting in the nursing home, that gives the market a shelf life of about 30 years tops.

 

A good way to predict the future of comics is to look at pre-Golden Age collectible trends like pulps, Edgar Rice Burroughs stuff, and big-little books. How many people under 40 even touch that stuff? Things like superheroes nobody has ever heard of will follow in the same direction. As has been pointed out, big names like Superman and Batman will always do well, although collecting titles that have over 500 issues and have number ones that are impossibly difficult to find - much less afford - can be intimidating to even the most audacious collector just starting out. Can anyone even begin to imagine collecting just Detective Comics from 1 or 27 up in grade? It would take a lifetime. How many people are really up for that??? (Besides me... )

[adamstrange]

It surprises me Adventure 247 is held in such low esteem. The Legion have one of the most loyal followings among DC collectors, probably surpassed only by Batman and JLA fans. Considering that it kicked off one of the longest running SA teams, is notoriously hard to find in high grade, and is priced at only 4 figures in the OS, I don`t think it has nearly the problem with being fully priced that Showcase 4 does.

 

Have you or anyone else on this thread ever read an Adventure 247? It's a TERRIBLE comic. Yes, it's rare and yes it's very tough in grade but the book is a dog! I was around when all these books came out and although I was weaned on DC, I hated the Legion as did most of my friends... Ok, I know I've started a war so all you Legion fans pipe up with why you previously or now would ever want to read a Legion book ( other than Saturn Girl's short skirt!)

Consider the war started!

 

This is cool, because we could never interact with your rants and raves when they were published in CBM.

 

In all honesty, I can't defend Adventure 247 either, as it was a non-descript story in a non-descript title, which is probably one reason why it's so hard to find today. Clearly its importance is retroactive, but that's okay, there are plenty of comics that share that characteristic. The Legion was a superb series, particularly once the teen-aged Jim Shooter started writing it. You might not have liked it, but lots of others clearly did. The SA series was certainly one of my favorite DC series, and interest only grew as the title progressed into the Dave Cockrum/Mike Grell era, and then even more into the Keith Giffen issues.

 

Fact: the group appeared almost continuously for over 3 decades, and was the clear headline act in Adventure starting from #300, and after a brief hiatus resumed being the headline act in Superboy from #200.

 

Fact: The only DC characters with longer running appearances are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, GL and JLA.

 

Fact: there are a bunch of Legion collectors, who bought the issues when they were being produced and have continued to buy back issues today.

 

Therefore, being the obsessive completists that we are, it's not surprising that Adventure 247 assumes its importance and value from Legion collectors who want to go back and pick up the first appearance, as well as the other early appearances. In fact, I would argue that it's harder to find their other early appearances, in sub-300 Adventure and Action, than it is to find #247.

 

Fact: tth2 is a lawyer

Fact: tth2 tells you to cease and desist

Fact: tth2 says try this again, and he'll sue you a** off

[adamstrange]

I don't have any links -- and I am relying on memory, so I will be the first to admit that the evidence is questionable.

 

One thing you mentioned though I want to touch on because it's a great point: Ebay is not the chosen venue for most GA collectors and that's something that's lost on a lot of people. Totally agree.

 

But I maintain that GA is not going to have as strong a future as SA and I do see a decline for it in the future.

 

 

This is not a "let's all bash GA thread".

 

This is a "let's bash SA key thread"

[tth2]

Fact: tth2 is a lawyer

Fact: tth2 tells you to cease and desist

Fact: tth2 says try this again, and he'll sue you a** off

I've actually never set foot in a courtroom except for the U.S. Supreme Court, and wouldn't know how to issue a cease and desist order if my life depended on it. I'm a "let's find a win-win situation that creates value for both sides" kind of guy. Roughly translated, that means "play ball, and we'll all make money together, but give me any trouble and I'll hire a guy like FFB who will come rip your head off".

 

So how 'bout that Legion?!

[tth2]

I've looked at some of the polls here on age of collectors plus there's my own experience in the time I've been in the hobby. A lot of folks that didn't grow up in the GA still like it. Thse are big comics that look substantial and have a presence that just isn't there in later books (even 50s books ) for some people.

Yeah, but how many of them are just nibbling on the edges, and how many are spending any substantial dollars or going after any of the key runs? I'd be curious to hear what is the average age of the purchasers of some of the recent big ticket JP-fire-sale items.

[esquirecomics]

I've looked at some of the polls here on age of collectors plus there's my own experience in the time I've been in the hobby. A lot of folks that didn't grow up in the GA still like it. Thse are big comics that look substantial and have a presence that just isn't there in later books (even 50s books ) for some people.

Yeah, but how many of them are just nibbling on the edges, and how many are spending any substantial dollars or going after any of the key runs? I'd be curious to hear what is the average age of the purchasers of some of the recent big ticket JP-fire-sale items.

 

38 (although not the BIG ticket items)

[adamstrange]

I've looked at some of the polls here on age of collectors plus there's my own experience in the time I've been in the hobby. A lot of folks that didn't grow up in the GA still like it. Thse are big comics that look substantial and have a presence that just isn't there in later books (even 50s books ) for some people.

Yeah, but how many of them are just nibbling on the edges, and how many are spending any substantial dollars or going after any of the key runs? I'd be curious to hear what is the average age of the purchasers of some of the recent big ticket JP-fire-sale items.

 

This is something that requires a lot longer reply than I'll be able to give. I'm back at work tomorrow and won't be posting or scanning too much for a while (don't everyone get all teary-eyed now).

 

Big-ticket items go to people with big bucks and I don't think that I'm the best person to answer the Heritage question. I do know that Heritage has managed to sell quite a few GA books and anyone can go through the archives to see what sells and what doesn't.

 

My perspective is that folks are spending substantial dollars, just not the way that they used to. One possible way to look at how GA is or will change is to look at coins. The big collectors don't collect everything like they did in the old days (30s through the 70s). Instead, they build relatively small sets that are defined in a variety of ways. A traditionalist might be upset or think the sky is falling, but, relatively speaking, there's a lot more money spent on coins then there was.

 

I don't want to take this coin analogy too far because there's a lot of complexity to coins that I'm leaving out and, yes, I'm aware that coins have been stagnant for a while. I'm comparing coin across decades, not years. Nor is the only trend that may be happening -- there are several others that I either think I see or think that I will see. Comics are still too complicated to reduce down to a simple formula or a single trend.

[adamstrange]

Fact: tth2 is a lawyer

Fact: tth2 tells you to cease and desist

Fact: tth2 says try this again, and he'll sue you a** off

I've actually never set foot in a courtroom except for the U.S. Supreme Court, and wouldn't know how to issue a cease and desist order if my life depended on it. I'm a "let's find a win-win situation that creates value for both sides" kind of guy. Roughly translated, that means "play ball, and we'll all make money together, but give me any trouble and I'll hire a guy like FFB who will come rip your head off".

 

So how 'bout that Legion?!

 

I'm rooting for them and have no doubt they'll cover the spread.

[Silver Surfer]

Timely's are not cheap and I don't think they will be getting any cheaper in the near future, nor do I beleive that there will be less GA collectors 5 years from now. If anything there might be a resurgence of interest when some of these older long time collectors start to unload their collections into the market. Personally I'm off SA books for a while because the fact that I can really buy whatever book I desire at almost any time is a bit of a turn off for me. I don't feel the same about GA books and I want to try and obtain then hold some pieces for the long-term.

[Silver Surfer]

I expect that other dealers would provide me with a professional courtesy discount. I think that is how it should be. And I only ask for what I am willing to do myself so, yes, without hesitation I would give most dealers courtesy discounts.

 

Mark that settles it, I'm going to get Bob to broker some purchases from your site for me. What is your standard delaer to dealer discount?

[skybolt]

Timely's are not cheap and I don't think they will be getting any cheaper in the near future, nor do I beleive that there will be less GA collectors 5 years from now. If anything there might be a resurgence of interest when some of these older long time collectors start to unload their collections into the market. Personally I'm off SA books for a while because the fact that I can really buy whatever book I desire at almost any time is a bit of a turn off for me. I don't feel the same about GA books and I want to try and obtain then hold some pieces for the long-term.

 

I feel the same way you do. What a lot of people take for granted with GA books is the love affair factor. If someone had told me 2 years ago that my collection would consist of about 250 CGC graded GA books, I'd say they were crazy! At that time I was mostly interested in SA and BA Marvels. One day I decided to pick-up one or two GA books for the nostalgia feel. I purchased a VG copy of Batman #37, a VF copy of Sensation Comics #69, and a FN+ copy of Action Comics #120. I was so intrigued by these books that I kept purchasing more and more. I began to collect some early Batmans, then moved over to Action, then to Sensations, and finally to good girl art. Over the past 2 years, I've only purchased 1 SA book (JIM #85 in FN/VF condition). I'm not saying that all SA or BA collectors will fall in love with GA books, but no one can tell until they try. The GA forum helped a lot as well, since I was now interested in the history behind these iconic books.

 

With regards to GA collecting, it's almost like dismissing dating a certain type of girl because you may feel that her values are too old fashioned for you. However, when you start dating for about 6 months to a year, then you realize that she's the perfect girl for you. That's how I now feel with GA books. For instance, if I sold my SA collection tomorrow and didn't get all my money back, I'd be extremely upset. However, I could take a 30% hit on my GA collection and still be content at the end of the day, because I enjoyed collecting and hunting for these books.