AF #15 CGC 9.0 on the 'link

[adamstrange]

So, who commiteed the greater "sin", the dealer who [embarrassing lack of self control] about these collector/dealers? or the collector/dealers who had to LIE in order to get what they wanted from the dealer?

 

Help me out here with the what you are accusing the dealer of doing. Are you concerned that the dealer did something wrong by refusing to sell to Person X instead of Person Y who is a long-standing customer or are you concerned that the dealer would only give a discount to person X when said individual lied?

[adamstrange]

Bob and other dealers now have to work in a world gone mad! Where there are far fewer impediments preventing collectors from acrtng like delaers or NEEDING dealers to cash out of comics they own.

 

and THAT must be a scary world for a dealer. I wouldnt like it if it happened in my business either.

 

The lying thing has been around for years on the part of dealers, collectors, collecter/dealers, and dealer/collectors. Check out some old RBCCs if you want to see similar laments. Neither is it just comics -- collectibles and money seem to bring out the worst in folks.

 

As far as it being scary for being a dealer, I would say that it is. I would expect that eBay, CGC, Internet, Auction Companies have reduced the margin and total revenue of dealer sales. If not, more and a greater percentage of revenue are flowing without the middleman. Bob had a thread in the General Forum about this subject so I don't think we need to repeat it here. I think Bob's one of the guys that is worth keeping around (in spite of his snarky posts) but, at the same time, as a frugal consumer, I've always tried to buy directly from the guy with the goods whenever I can, and that includes buying comics directly from other collectors.

[uclapeterg]

Without starting a wildfire with this comment if you are buying and selling books with the intent to make $$$$ you are a dealer, plain and simple. It's cut and dry to me. Why buy it if you don't need it? Somebody is going to answer - To buy the books I want for my collection. Well, then you are a dealer competing with me who is running a business. If you paid taxes, setup at the show, advertised and basically operated on the same ground I was I wouldn't be complaining as much. But sadly, I have seen "Dealers" become "collectors" real fast when a deal goes bad or somehow the book is restored and you want your money back.

 

I think we all buy comics we don't plan on keeping for our permanent collection when the price is right. It only makes sense if we see a key comic selling for cheap to snap it up.

 

If that's your definition of a dealer, then most of us here qualify.

 

I wouldn't.

[tth2]

Would you sell Jason Ewert or Danny raw books?

Bob, that's a pretty sharp question! You sure you never went to law school?

 

I guess this would be one of those rare cases where buyer motives WOULD matter, and the answer is I would not sell to them.

[tth2]

It surprises me Adventure 247 is held in such low esteem. The Legion have one of the most loyal followings among DC collectors, probably surpassed only by Batman and JLA fans. Considering that it kicked off one of the longest running SA teams, is notoriously hard to find in high grade, and is priced at only 4 figures in the OS, I don`t think it has nearly the problem with being fully priced that Showcase 4 does.

 

Have you or anyone else on this thread ever read an Adventure 247? It's a TERRIBLE comic. Yes, it's rare and yes it's very tough in grade but the book is a dog! I was around when all these books came out and although I was weaned on DC, I hated the Legion as did most of my friends... Ok, I know I've started a war so all you Legion fans pipe up with why you previously or now would ever want to read a Legion book ( other than Saturn Girl's short skirt!)

Consider the war started!

 

This is cool, because we could never interact with your rants and raves when they were published in CBM.

 

In all honesty, I can't defend Adventure 247 either, as it was a non-descript story in a non-descript title, which is probably one reason why it's so hard to find today. Clearly its importance is retroactive, but that's okay, there are plenty of comics that share that characteristic. The Legion was a superb series, particularly once the teen-aged Jim Shooter started writing it. You might not have liked it, but lots of others clearly did. The SA series was certainly one of my favorite DC series, and interest only grew as the title progressed into the Dave Cockrum/Mike Grell era, and then even more into the Keith Giffen issues.

 

Fact: the group appeared almost continuously for over 3 decades, and was the clear headline act in Adventure starting from #300, and after a brief hiatus resumed being the headline act in Superboy from #200.

 

Fact: The only DC characters with longer running appearances are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, GL and JLA.

 

Fact: there are a bunch of Legion collectors, who bought the issues when they were being produced and have continued to buy back issues today.

 

Therefore, being the obsessive completists that we are, it's not surprising that Adventure 247 assumes its importance and value from Legion collectors who want to go back and pick up the first appearance, as well as the other early appearances. In fact, I would argue that it's harder to find their other early appearances, in sub-300 Adventure and Action, than it is to find #247.

[tth2]

B&B 28 is the single most important?

SSSHHHH!!!! If Keith believes B&B 28 is the single most important SA issue, who are we to question him?!

[adamstrange]

B&B 28 is the single most important?

SSSHHHH!!!! If Keith believes B&B 28 is the single most important SA issue, who are we to question him?!

 

Unless he doesn't like Adv 247 and then we should?

[adamstrange]

The Legion was a superb series, particularly once the teen-aged Jim Shooter started writing it. You might not have liked it, but lots of others clearly did.

 

I wondered whether I should have mentioned Shooter. I really like that part of the run but wasn't sure how popular it was with others.

[Aman619]

So, who commiteed the greater "sin", the dealer who [embarrassing lack of self control] about these collector/dealers? or the collector/dealers who had to LIE in order to get what they wanted from the dealer?

 

Help me out here with the what you are accusing the dealer of doing. Are you concerned that the dealer did something wrong by refusing to sell to Person X instead of Person Y who is a long-standing customer or are you concerned that the dealer would only give a discount to person X when said individual lied?

 

neither. I must not have written it clearly. I was taking Bobs side in complaining about being lied to by someone who claimed to be a collector who then turned around and flipped the book for a profit (including the amount of $ he wheedled in discount posing as a collectyor.

 

In my example I wasnt accusing the dealer of anything other than person_without_enough_empathyhing about it, which I feel is the lesser "sin" here.

[Aman619]

Bob and other dealers now have to work in a world gone mad! Where there are far fewer impediments preventing collectors from acrtng like delaers or NEEDING dealers to cash out of comics they own.

 

and THAT must be a scary world for a dealer. I wouldnt like it if it happened in my business either.

 

The lying thing has been around for years on the part of dealers, collectors, collecter/dealers, and dealer/collectors. Check out some old RBCCs if you want to see similar laments. Neither is it just comics -- collectibles and money seem to bring out the worst in folks.

 

As far as it being scary for being a dealer, I would say that it is. I would expect that eBay, CGC, Internet, Auction Companies have reduced the margin and total revenue of dealer sales. If not, more and a greater percentage of revenue are flowing without the middleman. Bob had a thread in the General Forum about this subject so I don't think we need to repeat it here. I think Bob's one of the guys that is worth keeping around (in spite of his snarky posts) but, at the same time, as a frugal consumer, I've always tried to buy directly from the guy with the goods whenever I can, and that includes buying comics directly from other collectors.

 

yup. Thats my larger point. thanx. succks for Bob and other "good" dealers for whom the landscape has shifted. But, overall, well, better for collectors, and even if it were worse for collectors now, things have changed. We all have to deal with it.

[esquirecomics]

Mark, I feel that your opinion might have been a little different if you personally owned or were selling some of the keys you are 'concerned' about. If you happen to get one of these keys why would a customer want to buy it from you? You have publicly stated on the thread that there seems to be more downside than upside? If the customer asked if you would buy it back for the same price he paid would you say yes or no? Would you have the same feeling about Showcase #4 9.2 if you didn't have your money into it?

 

I'm sorry you don't like my back stabbing but I feel that you have done the same to dealers (Me) with your "opinion". Your "opinion" is much different on a book you have $$$ invested in versus books you don't. And regardless of the facts you've presented I still don't agree with your price or the logic behind it.

 

At least now you are being straightforward. We will just have to respectfully disagree on this assessment. I don't believe this to be true at all, nor frankly am I aware of any insight you might have of me or the way I've run my business to offer this conclusion.

 

Anyone who has ever spoken with me I believe would say I am completely honest and straightforward about what I think of those books in my inventory and elsewhere. I will pointedly state which books I view as overgraded by CGC and which I think I have listed at too high a price b/c of my "stupidity" in how much I paid for the book. That you don't agree with one of my listed prices or the logic behind it is perfectly fine. You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to state otherwise.

 

With respect to the dealer vs. collector status, that question is completely irrelevant to the underlying topic we were discussing, which was whether the prices for key HG SA books could sustain their current upward prices.

 

Nevetheless, on that question, I agree the line is very blurry now. We've addressed this topic on other threads. You and I are not far apart in age and started collecting just about the same time (1974 for me, at least that is how far back I can recall). I sold comics as early as 6th grade to other students, and was actively selling at shows when I was a senior in HS. After a hiatus during college, I also sold at a show while in law school. I then backed out again and came back full force a couple of years ago. Perhaps if Shadroch had not talked me out of becoming a comic dealer in 1985 I would have engaged in the same career path as you.

 

During 1979-1990, was I a dealer? I never saw myself really as one. I was a collector selling comics. I never made any money. I always spent every dime I earned on more comics! Not much has changed now instead the dime is $10,000!!! The bottom line is even now pretty much everything I bring in selling goes right back to buying. Still, I now consider myself a "dealer", at least part-time obviously, as I spend thousands of dollars on ads, thousands of dollars on travel, have a website, have an e-bay store (as of tonight!) and sell at shows. But I do not rely on comics for my livelihood or to pay any bills.

 

Still, Dave the Dentist does virtually the same thing as me yet I don't consider him a "dealer". Not sure how he describes himself.

 

I expect that other dealers would provide me with a professional courtesy discount. I think that is how it should be. And I only ask for what I am willing to do myself so, yes, without hesitation I would give most dealers courtesy discounts. I will not to those who never give me. And as many forumites know I always try to give discounts to everyone if I can. Depends on how much I have invested in the book.

 

I do see a distinction, as you insinuated, between selling to a collector and a dealer and how that makes me feel when that individual then resells the book for more. I would hope a collector would not do that. I certainly expect the dealer to do that, but I would hope they allow some reasonable time period before they do it. Meaning, I would be a little annoyed if some dealer at a show came to my booth, asked me for a discount on a book, and then took the book to their booth where they sold it for a nice profit. If I were the dealer and some customer came to me looking for a book and I knew who had it, I would refer the customer to that dealer. Perhaps I would receive a "referral" fee, perhaps not. But I do this all the time in my law practice and I would hope comic book dealers could operate on this type of professional and amicable level as well. Unfortunately, some dealers only seem to perceive other dealers as pure competition and the enemy, rather than simply an adversary you can work with and benefit from.

[esquirecomics]

Have you or anyone else on this thread ever read an Adventure 247? It's a TERRIBLE comic. Yes, it's rare and yes it's very tough in grade but the book is a dog! I was around when all these books came out and although I was weaned on DC, I hated the Legion as did most of my friends. Bouncing Boy a super hero? Hell, the Baxter Building's mailman could wiggle his ears, why not make him a super hero. I agree with Bob's take. Flash 105 is impossible in grade and I'd rather have that than Showcase 4. Also agree with WOnder Woman 105. Showcase 22 another personal favorite but to me B&B 28 is THE Silver DC key and is probably the most important comic ever printed as it DID lead to Ff1 and the rest is history. Ok, I know I've started a war so all you Legion fans pipe up with why you previously or now would ever want to read a Legion book ( other than Saturn Girl's short skirt!) Which remainds me of another favorite; Action 252. ANyone have documented sales of this book in Grade?

 

My point is that opinions change across generations and the Adv 247 rep has changed somewhat because of those that read what they considered to be well-written series by Levitz/Grell or Giffen. Those readers then go back and try to get the original even though it might have been despised at the time by the cognoscenti among the original readership. I don't regard those collectors as stupid or irrational any more than I do myself. Collectors of art or antiques would look down on ALL of us for buying "stupid stuff" like Flash or FF or whatever your favorite comic book character happens to be.

 

When you say you would rather own a Flash 105 than a Showcase 4, doesn't price enter into it? If you had a choice between a Flash 105 in 9.6 and Showcase 4 in 9.6, both only and highest-graded at the SAME price, would you choose the Flash 105? If not, at what price ratio is the tipping point between the two?

 

B&B 28 is the single most important? That's based on the golf course conversation anecdote, right? Goodman and Lee were not newbies to the comic publishing biz and knew all about superheros, circulation trends, and watching your competitor. Even if the anecdote were true and it was the tipping point (and I'm doubtful it was more than that), Kirby took nothing from that book to create the FF. From a historical perspective, you could more easily take the position that the initial FF was INSPIRED by a combination of the pre-hero monster books, Challengers of the Unknown, GA human torch, and plastic man. Further, if you trully believe that FF 1 was the foundation of modern comics (and I don't know that I would disagree with you), then doesn't it make sense to place it on the pedestal above Showcase 4 and B&B 28? After all, we give Superman/Action 1 the preeminent position when it comes to superheros even though Zorro, The Gladiator, Tarzan, Green Hornet and the Shadow all came before.

 

WW 105 has a knockout cover in high grade and it's darn tough to find, but a historical key? WW 98 is the change from HG Peters (GA artist) to Andru/Esposito (SA artists) and has a new origin/partial origin. Was there any big shift in 105 different than the major shift in 98? What did your friends think of WW when you were a kid? Was the 7.5k for 9.4 back in summer 2002 a bargain or a good deal?

 

All this argument over history won't mean much except to those who use that as a criteria in their collecting. JiveMoFo has previously pointed it's not much interest to him or collectors he interacts with. Darn youngsters, just don't know their history!

 

I concur with much, if not all, of what AS has written. We need to factor in price, at least on some level, for many of these books when we talk about which we would prefer. Depending on the availability of funding, I might prefer a 9.6 Flash #105 to a 9.6 Showcase #4. For one thing it would be much, much cheaper, which would also mean its marketability is likely greater, i.e., more people could afford it. From a financial standpoint I could buy the Marvel Comics #1 CGC 9.0 Pay Copy if I wanted (although my wife would kill me), but as a "dealer" I could not justify the purchase as my likelihood of resale within a reasonable time probably exceeds my ability to have those funds tied up for so long.

 

Keith, I agree with you about Action #252. How about Action #242? Introduction of a key Superman villan and impossible to find in HG.

[Aman619]

so here we are full circle, in a way. I say that in this regard, a 9.2+ Showcase 4 resembles a 9.0 Marvel#1 in its salability. Sort of. At least to me.

[esquirecomics]

so here we are full circle, in a way. I say that in this regard, a 9.2+ Showcase 4 resembles a 9.0 Marvel#1 in its salability. Sort of. At least to me.

 

That is a reasonable assessment. I personally would prefer the Marvel #1 b/c of the history surrounding that book versus the Showcase #4. BUT, for those who are SA collectors instead of GA, no doubt the decision would go the other way.

 

Any book over $100,000 becomes part of a class of its own with respect to saleability. Probably Action #1 and Superman #1 are really the two key six figure books that could also be sold to non-comic book collectors who are investors b/c everyone knows Superman. For example, the Flash Comics #1 CGC 9.6 that is up for sale at Heritage will have only a few people legitimately gunning for it, or who can afford it. Personally, I would rather have the Showcase #4 than the Flash #1 (not necessarily factoring in that this is the Mile High/Church copy).

[Foolkiller]

I'm not sure how much I can add to this thread that hasn't already been posted. A while back I started a thread asking whether Silver will be the new Gold. To me, most Gold has a very short shelf life, and little investment potential. Comparing Action #1 or Detective 27 is difficult because these two books will always have significant investment/historical perspective. But I wonder how many people will see the same historical value in Marvel #1 and others GA keys in the future. To me, the future of comics lies in books like Brave and the Bold 28, Showcase 4, AF 15 and FF 1 -- not GA. This is because I see the base of future back issue collectors going in that direction, with little increased interest in the GA stuff. It's hard to identify with the characters or even the history since it becomes further removed from the current comic book hobby.

 

On the whole though, I see a very small future for GA outside of Captain America Comics, the Key DCs and some other Timely's -- but that's just me. Perhaps it's my bleak perspective on the GA.

[october]

Hope you are right. Then I can finally buy all the ECs and L.B. Cole covers I have wanted.

[Foolkiller]

Andy --

 

I just see the competition for GA shrinking. It may take a number of years, but I believe by the time we are in our early 40s, the market landscape of GA values and what actually sells -- will change. There's already a number of CGC 9.0/9.2 GA that doesn't sell at guide (and these are Detectives) and I see that trend continuing.

[october]

Andy --

 

I just see the competition for GA shrinking. It may take a number of years, but I believe by the time we are in our early 40s, the market landscape of GA values and what actually sells -- will change.

 

I agree that obscure superheros and the more offbeat titles will wane more and more as time goes on, especially after the high grade speculative slab chasers are completely out of the picture. That being said, the golden age market is already extremely rarefied, I can't see prices on classic covers or tier 1 & 2 superheroes dipping a whole lot. Prices may plateau and large multiples for small grade differences may diminish, but do you really see mainstream GA titles taking a significant hit (10-20% or more)? After all, it doesn't take a significantly large collecting base to prop up a market like that.

 

I would really like to read a discussion on gold's projected future.

 

There's already a number of CGC 9.0/9.2 GA that doesn't sell at guide (and these are Detectives) and I see that trend continuing.

 

Do you think this is a case of Overstreet upping values on relatively stable prices, or have their values actively gone down in the last decade or so?

[ComicBookGuy]

Andy --

 

I just see the competition for GA shrinking. It may take a number of years, but I believe by the time we are in our early 40s, the market landscape of GA values and what actually sells -- will change. There's already a number of CGC 9.0/9.2 GA that doesn't sell at guide (and these are Detectives) and I see that trend continuing.

 

I hope you're right, Brian, cause I'm collecting Batmans and Detectives backwards. Right now I'm in the late 1950s and moving toward the middle 1950s. Hopefully by the time I get to the GA ones they'll be cheaper.

Joe

[Aman619]

so here we are full circle, in a way. I say that in this regard, a 9.2+ Showcase 4 resembles a 9.0 Marvel#1 in its salability. Sort of. At least to me.

 

That is a reasonable assessment. I personally would prefer the Marvel #1 b/c of the history surrounding that book versus the Showcase #4. BUT, for those who are SA collectors instead of GA, no doubt the decision would go the other way.

 

Any book over $100,000 becomes part of a class of its own with respect to saleability. Probably Action #1 and Superman #1 are really the two key six figure books that could also be sold to non-comic book collectors who are investors b/c everyone knows Superman. For example, the Flash Comics #1 CGC 9.6 that is up for sale at Heritage will have only a few people legitimately gunning for it, or who can afford it. Personally, I would rather have the Showcase #4 than the Flash #1 (not necessarily factoring in that this is the Mile High/Church copy).

 

definitely Action 1 and Tec 27 will be the very last 2 comics to maintain ANY values at all... after AF15, when all is lost and forgotten for comics.

 

As for Flash 1 vs Showcase 4. well, not to keep banging Showcase 4 upside the head, Flash 1 has of course the First Flash, plus Hawkman ( big deal) origins. ar roughly the same pricetag for comparably graded or scarcity rated copies, Im not sure which would be a better buy going forward.