AF #15 CGC 9.0 on the 'link

[blazingbob]

True, I could have degraded my post by personally commenting on my Suspense #3 CGC GD 2.0 which I have up for sale. A book I have a personal investment in.

 

What is your opinion of the book? Overrated, significant Golden Age issue or just politically incorrect? Does it warrant it's price? Would it be deemed a key? Suspense #3 has been discussed in CBG's letter section I believe. Keith might remember the Suspense #3/AF #15 debate/letters going back and forth in CBG.

 

Mark, I feel that your opinion might have been a little different if you personally owned or were selling some of the keys you are 'concerned' about. If you happen to get one of these keys why would a customer want to buy it from you? You have publicly stated on the thread that there seems to be more downside than upside? If the customer asked if you would buy it back for the same price he paid would you say yes or no? Would you have the same feeling about Showcase #4 9.2 if you didn't have your money into it?

 

I'm sorry you don't like my back stabbing but I feel that you have done the same to dealers (Me) with your "opinion". Your "opinion" is much different on a book you have $$$ invested in versus books you don't. And regardless of the facts you've presented I still don't agree with your price or the logic behind it.

[Norrin_Radd]

Without starting a wildfire with this comment if you are buying and selling books with the intent to make $$$$ you are a dealer, plain and simple. It's cut and dry to me. Why buy it if you don't need it? Somebody is going to answer - To buy the books I want for my collection. Well, then you are a dealer competing with me who is running a business. If you paid taxes, setup at the show, advertised and basically operated on the same ground I was I wouldn't be complaining as much. But sadly, I have seen "Dealers" become "collectors" real fast when a deal goes bad or somehow the book is restored and you want your money back.

 

I think we all buy comics we don't plan on keeping for our permanent collection when the price is right. It only makes sense if we see a key comic selling for cheap to snap it up.

 

If that's your definition of a dealer, then most of us here qualify.

[tth2]

Without starting a wildfire with this comment if you are buying and selling books with the intent to make $$$$ you are a dealer, plain and simple. It's cut and dry to me. Why buy it if you don't need it? Somebody is going to answer - To buy the books I want for my collection. Well, then you are a dealer competing with me who is running a business. If you paid taxes, setup at the show, advertised and basically operated on the same ground I was I wouldn't be complaining as much. But sadly, I have seen "Dealers" become "collectors" real fast when a deal goes bad or somehow the book is restored and you want your money back.

 

I think we all buy comics we don't plan on keeping for our permanent collection when the price is right. It only makes sense if we see a key comic selling for cheap to snap it up.

 

If that's your definition of a dealer, then most of us here qualify.

Quite frankly, I could care less whether someone is characterized as a dealer, a collector, or both. If he`s got books I want, then I want him to sell them to me, whatever his motivations are. And if I`m selling, I want him to buy my books, whatever his motivations are.

[adamstrange]

Without starting a wildfire with this comment if you are buying and selling books with the intent to make $$$$ you are a dealer, plain and simple. It's cut and dry to me. Why buy it if you don't need it? Somebody is going to answer - To buy the books I want for my collection. Well, then you are a dealer competing with me who is running a business. If you paid taxes, setup at the show, advertised and basically operated on the same ground I was I wouldn't be complaining as much. But sadly, I have seen "Dealers" become "collectors" real fast when a deal goes bad or somehow the book is restored and you want your money back.

 

I think we all buy comics we don't plan on keeping for our permanent collection when the price is right. It only makes sense if we see a key comic selling for cheap to snap it up.

 

If that's your definition of a dealer, then most of us here qualify.

 

I don't buy for resale, but if I were to find an Action 1 in fine with white page for 10K, I think that the definition of my collecting wants would be flexible enough to accommodate it.

[blazingbob]

Very interesting comment because I see two different things from a collector/dealer selling point of view.

 

To me a dealer has a reputation at stake, a willingness to stand behind what they sell and a refund policy in place that protects me the buyer in case a book is restored. I expect that a dealer knows how to grade. I expect them to disclose restoration.

 

The Collector doesn't necessarily have a reputation to protect or even care about it since after the books are gone they are out of the hobby. I do not always assume that collectors know how to grade. With my experience going to see a lot of personal collections I tend to fell that many do not. I do not expect them to know how to spot restoration. However, if it's an "assembled" collection I do expect them to disclose restored books. If I miss something it depends if I go back and ask for a price adjustment.

 

I generally don't often question a buyer's motivations but as I've stated before I'm not too fond of the chewer who uses the "I'm a collector and it's going into my collection" to get me to lower the price and then sells it a week later on ebay. Yes, I know once it's gone I shouldn't care but quite frankly I'm not in business to make "that guy" money.

[skybolt]

I think most collectors are worried about their reputation when selling ther books. For instance, I'm at a point where I want to maintain a consistent total value and a certain number of CGC graded books within my collection. However, since my collecting goals are constantly changing, I have to sell some of my old books on Ebay, ComicLink, etc to gain additional funds. My reputation means a great deal if I'm keeping the brunt of my collection, and decide to sell it and get my money back 10, 20, 30 years from now. Most collectors will sell a lot of comic books before exiting the market completely.

[Silver Surfer]

I hear what your saying Bob but if you feel like your getting the price chewed on a book below what you would like it to fetch then maybe don't sell it? Dealer, collector, whatever we all have to sell books sooner than later and maybe below what we want at times (such as when you decided to purchase your home) so its all about timing. I think a buyer has to at least ask for some kind of discount and its the onus on the seller to decide if they want to move it or not. Flipping is just par for the course.

 

I guess there are a lot of people who can complain about the fact that 95%+ of the time "dealers" over grade their books, not undergrade them (not including you in this category as I have never bought raw books for you) so your comment about collectors not knowing how to grade made me chuckle a bit.

[blazingbob]

Would you sell Jason Ewert or Danny raw books?

[jkc313]

PCE was listing the Mohawk copy, which was a 9.2. And yes, they were asking for something in the neighborhood of $50-60K, which was patently absurd.

 

It surprises me Adventure 247 is held in such low esteem. The Legion have one of the most loyal followings among DC collectors, probably surpassed only by Batman and JLA fans. Considering that it kicked off one of the longest running SA teams, is notoriously hard to find in high grade, and is priced at only 4 figures in the OS, I don`t think it has nearly the problem with being fully priced that Showcase 4 does.

 

Have you or anyone else on this thread ever read an Adventure 247? It's a TERRIBLE comic. Yes, it's rare and yes it's very tough in grade but the book is a dog! I was around when all these books came out and although I was weaned on DC, I hated the Legion as did most of my friends. Bouncing Boy a super hero? Hell, the Baxter Building's mailman could wiggle his ears, why not make him a super hero. I agree with Bob's take. Flash 105 is impossible in grade and I'd rather have that than Showcase 4. Also agree with WOnder Woman 105. Showcase 22 another personal favorite but to me B&B 28 is THE Silver DC key and is probably the most important comic ever printed as it DID lead to Ff1 and the rest is history. Ok, I know I've started a war so all you Legion fans pipe up with why you previously or now would ever want to read a Legion book ( other than Saturn Girl's short skirt!) Which remainds me of another favorite; Action 252. ANyone have documented sales of this book in Grade? My copy's been cleaned and pressed. Would love a better one. keith

[jkc313]

 

 

 

 

And I echo everyone else when I welcome Keith to the boards. I bought some Bethlehem books from him a few months back and was VERY pleased...

 

Ahhh. My Bethlehem friend!!! Thanks for kind words from you and others! Haven't been ranting since I stopped writing for CBM. Shame it's not here anymore.

[adamstrange]

1) Virtually all of the long-term GA collectors are not part of the CGC slabbing generation. They only slab books when they are about to put them onto the market. They don't care a bit about the CGC Registry and the whole ego thing as they would much rather keep their collection as low profile as possible. These major GA collectors were picking up the SA books including the keys very early on in their collecting phase, and have yet to slab them.

 

I'm curious as to why people think this sentence in bold might be the case? Obviously there are all different types of collectors and the motivations that guide them, but to me as a collector I love sharing the items I have acquired. It is not an issue of showing off that I have high $$$ items (if anything this causes a potential theft concern), but to me sharing these items is the very essence of being a collector. Not a lot of fun if you keep it to yourself, IMHO.

 

To a lot of folks "sharing" is indistinguishable from "bragging". I actually prefer people to share. There aren't significant museum display of comic books so the only way I can see these beauties is when folks show them to me in person (the best!) or online.

[jkc313]

Would you sell Jason Ewert or Danny raw books?

 

 

OUCH!!!!! Good one Bob!!! BTW I love Suspense 3 and remember much debate about the book. I'm also with you on "collector's" wanting a lower price. You apparantly are as naive as I am (or maybe I'm just stupid). I've always given fellow dealers a break on most books even expensive ones( and you ahve made me some generous offers in the past has have mosy of our fellow dealers) but have had even a softer spot for fellow collectors. Remember the Platinum Spidey #1 circa 1990? I raffled one off at an Atlanta Fantasy Fair for something like $300. I had 2. This kid that didn't win it appeared devestated. His MOM came up to me and didn't know I had another but she went on and on about how her son really wanted one and the kid echoed this so I GAVE him the other copy. You guessed it. He went straight to another dealer and sold it for $200+!! Beware the "I'm a collector" routine.

[adamstrange]

Would you sell Jason Ewert or Danny raw books?

 

 

OUCH!!!!! Good one Bob!!! BTW I love Suspense 3 and remember much debate about the book. I'm also with you on "collector's" wanting a lower price. You apparantly are as naive as I am (or maybe I'm just stupid). I've always given fellow dealers a break on most books even expensive ones( and you ahve made me some generous offers in the past has have mosy of our fellow dealers) but have had even a softer spot for fellow collectors. Remember the Platinum Spidey #1 circa 1990? I raffled one off at an Atlanta Fantasy Fair for something like $300. I had 2. This kid that didn't win it appeared devestated. His MOM came up to me and didn't know I had another but she went on and on about how her son really wanted one and the kid echoed this so I GAVE him the other copy. You guessed it. He went straight to another dealer and sold it for $200+!! Beware the "I'm a collector" routine.

 

Thanks for sharing that. Good to know kids haven't changed since Kirby got turned off of doing "free" sketches at San Diego Con.

 

I've had the "you have to sell it to me I'm a collector" line used on me many a time so it must work for some people. My response is that while selling them the book might make them happy it would THIS collector very sad.

[adamstrange]

Have you or anyone else on this thread ever read an Adventure 247? It's a TERRIBLE comic. Yes, it's rare and yes it's very tough in grade but the book is a dog! I was around when all these books came out and although I was weaned on DC, I hated the Legion as did most of my friends. Bouncing Boy a super hero? Hell, the Baxter Building's mailman could wiggle his ears, why not make him a super hero. I agree with Bob's take. Flash 105 is impossible in grade and I'd rather have that than Showcase 4. Also agree with WOnder Woman 105. Showcase 22 another personal favorite but to me B&B 28 is THE Silver DC key and is probably the most important comic ever printed as it DID lead to Ff1 and the rest is history. Ok, I know I've started a war so all you Legion fans pipe up with why you previously or now would ever want to read a Legion book ( other than Saturn Girl's short skirt!) Which remainds me of another favorite; Action 252. ANyone have documented sales of this book in Grade?

 

My point is that opinions change across generations and the Adv 247 rep has changed somewhat because of those that read what they considered to be well-written series by Levitz/Grell or Giffen. Those readers then go back and try to get the original even though it might have been despised at the time by the cognoscenti among the original readership. I don't regard those collectors as stupid or irrational any more than I do myself. Collectors of art or antiques would look down on ALL of us for buying "stupid stuff" like Flash or FF or whatever your favorite comic book character happens to be.

 

When you say you would rather own a Flash 105 than a Showcase 4, doesn't price enter into it? If you had a choice between a Flash 105 in 9.6 and Showcase 4 in 9.6, both only and highest-graded at the SAME price, would you choose the Flash 105? If not, at what price ratio is the tipping point between the two?

 

B&B 28 is the single most important? That's based on the golf course conversation anecdote, right? Goodman and Lee were not newbies to the comic publishing biz and knew all about superheros, circulation trends, and watching your competitor. Even if the anecdote were true and it was the tipping point (and I'm doubtful it was more than that), Kirby took nothing from that book to create the FF. From a historical perspective, you could more easily take the position that the initial FF was INSPIRED by a combination of the pre-hero monster books, Challengers of the Unknown, GA human torch, and plastic man. Further, if you trully believe that FF 1 was the foundation of modern comics (and I don't know that I would disagree with you), then doesn't it make sense to place it on the pedestal above Showcase 4 and B&B 28? After all, we give Superman/Action 1 the preeminent position when it comes to superheros even though Zorro, The Gladiator, Tarzan, Green Hornet and the Shadow all came before.

 

WW 105 has a knockout cover in high grade and it's darn tough to find, but a historical key? WW 98 is the change from HG Peters (GA artist) to Andru/Esposito (SA artists) and has a new origin/partial origin. Was there any big shift in 105 different than the major shift in 98? What did your friends think of WW when you were a kid? Was the 7.5k for 9.4 back in summer 2002 a bargain or a good deal?

 

All this argument over history won't mean much except to those who use that as a criteria in their collecting. JiveMoFo has previously pointed it's not much interest to him or collectors he interacts with. Darn youngsters, just don't know their history!

[PUNYHUMAN]

 

 

 

And I echo everyone else when I welcome Keith to the boards. I bought some Bethlehem books from him a few months back and was VERY pleased...

 

Ahhh. My Bethlehem friend!!! Thanks for kind words from you and others! Haven't been ranting since I stopped writing for CBM. Shame it's not here anymore.

 

This has been a great thread!! Hey Kieth, keep ranting , I miss those CBM Rants & Raves !! Always food for thought for us collectors. BTW Welcome to the boards . & Adam Strange, good insights !! I myself love B & B # 28 , exciting concept since the Golden Age . More important in the long run then Showcase # 4 IMO!!

[TeddieMercede]

Someone should get Steve Fishler on this thread to defend the Show 4, which I know he is a very big supporter of. You guys and your mob mentality.

[metropoliscomics]

I find the notion that someone out there believes that there is a more important and more valuable silver age DC than Showcase #4 to be quite ludicrous. I could prattle on and on about the importance of Showcase #4 but the sheer act of prattling the obvious seems like a terrible waste of valuable brain cells.

 

Steve

[FFB]

I find the notion that someone out there believes that there is a more important and more valuable silver age DC than Showcase #4 to be quite ludicrous. I could prattle on and on about the importance of Showcase #4 but the sheer act of prattling the obvious seems like a terrible waste of valuable brain cells.

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

This entire hobby at times seems like a terrible waste of valuable brain cells, so don't hold back on our account. I'd be interested in reading your obvious prattle concerning Showcase #4.

[Aman619]

great thread guys! and mark me down for MORE KEITH RANTS!!!! Hey Keith, you might just be the sparkplug for 2006 around here. It was slowing down for a while in late 2005. keep it coming...

[Aman619]

back to Bobs problems/comments with collector/dealers. Im a collector (even tho I sold off a few books in the past couple years) but I can see and emphathize (sp?) with Bob's lament. I sure wouldnt want to be selling to customers who turn around and flip them for more money. I agree that its really none of my business what they do with my books after I take their dough. BUT - - in answer to those who say I could have said NO to them, these "collectors" LIED to me --- which contributed to my decision to sell to them. If they were honest, I could have said no thank you and sold to someone else.

 

So, who commiteed the greater "sin", the dealer who [embarrassing lack of self control] about these collector/dealers? or the collector/dealers who had to LIE in order to get what they wanted from the dealer?

 

now, having said this, its a wild world and LYING isnt nearly an actionable offense anymore, nor is saying or doing whatever it takes to get books with profit potential in them (otherwise every dealer who ever bought a collection is as guilty as the so-called collector/dealers in this instance) so whats really going on is that Bob and other dealers now have to work in a world gone mad! Where there are far fewer impediments preventing collectors from acrtng like delaers or NEEDING dealers to cash out of comics they own.

 

and THAT must be a scary world for a dealer. I wouldnt like it if it happened in my business either.