Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[jharvey]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:32 AM, EastEnd1 said:

If anyone receives an order back WITHOUT the spine curves, please post here and let us know.  I, and sounds like many others, are holding off on submitting new orders until this is resolved, and it's hard to tell whether CGC will make any announcements once the issue is corrected.  Thank you.

I received back 38 vintage comics within the last week and none of them were warped. 

[DanJD]

On 8/29/2024 at 4:09 PM, 0r0d said:

I'm communicating with CGC at the moment about my books, and so far they've commented that the issues on the photos I sent them look like they're all acceptable for 9.8 comics.  (I'll post the ones I sent below for reference)  However, one thing that occurred to me is that it's hard to capture these bends and ticks adequately on photos and they tend to look worse when you're actually holding the book in hand.   But I'm not sure what else to do since photos is basically all I can actually provide as evidence, plus my assurance that these were not there originally.  But if they say "these are ok for 9.8"... there's just no way I can refute that in any way since it's their opinion based on photos that dont really convey how the book looks in person.  =(

 

The video recently posted about “spine stress” with Matt N in it clearly stated a few spine ticks are acceptable in a 9.8 as long as they don’t break color.  It would be helpful if CGC would publish specific knock outs for various grades.  I lost count of the number of times a seller tried to convince me that a color break must have been small enough that CGC still gave it a 9.8.

[0r0d]

On 8/29/2024 at 4:12 PM, DanJD said:

The video recently posted about “spine stress” with Matt N in it clearly stated a few spine ticks are acceptable in a 9.8 as long as they don’t break color.  It would be helpful if CGC would publish specific knock outs for various grades.  I lost count of the number of times a seller tried to convince me that a color break must have been small enough that CGC still gave it a 9.8.

There's a difference between what they "say" and how they actually grade comics.  It could just be that some of their graders are way harsher, but I've seen many 9.6 books that should be 9.8 by that criteria.

Also, the size of the spine ticks matters.  When they talk about spine ticks (color breaking or otherwise) on 9.8 books, they usually mean at or less than 1/16" to 1/8".  Or, at least that's my impression.  The ticks I'm seeing on the books pictured above are way larger than 1/16".   I got a couple others with multiple small ticks that are all less than 1/16" so I didnt send them those.  But again, it's hard to capture the full size of these ticks on photos.  Only looking at them in person do you see just how big they are and how far from the spine they extend.  The most severe tick/bend on one of my books here extends 1/4".   

Is anyone going to seriously tell me that a spine tick/bend that's 1/4" is going to still get a 9.8?

 

[MAY1979]

On 8/29/2024 at 7:10 PM, jharvey said:

I received back 38 vintage comics within the last week and none of them were warped. 

that follows the pattern. Which means post 1975 books do not need to be damaged.  Still I ain't chances on any high grade vintage slabbed in 2023 or 2024 unless I am able to hold it in hand an view the sides first.  

Edited August 30 by MAY1979

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/29/2024 at 9:32 AM, EastEnd1 said:

If anyone receives an order back WITHOUT the spine curves, please post here and let us know.  I, and sounds like many others, are holding off on submitting new orders until this is resolved, and it's hard to tell whether CGC will make any announcements once the issue is corrected.  Thank you.

The problem with this is that as long as the problem goes on, the less likely people are to submit books. Those that do may not be aware of the issue, so won't be looking.

I wish I had caught up on this thread a month ago, before my membership renewed, so I could put a pause on renewing, since I won't be submitting anything until this is taken care of. (And I was prepping a decent batch to send in, but they're mostly for the PC, so I especially don't want to risk it.)

[electricprune]

On 8/29/2024 at 7:10 PM, jharvey said:

I received back 38 vintage comics within the last week and none of them were warped. 

The Vintage tier seems to be far less affected. This is too the point where there have only been a small handful of Vintage books posted.

[MAY1979]

 

On 8/29/2024 at 8:11 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

The problem with this is that as long as the problem goes on, the less likely people are to submit books. Those that do may not be aware of the issue, so won't be looking.

I wish I had caught up on this thread a month ago, before my membership renewed, so I could put a pause on renewing, since I won't be submitting anything until this is taken care of. (And I was prepping a decent batch to send in, but they're mostly for the PC, so I especially don't want to risk it.)

I've had to pivot as well and will be submitting Video Games to eat up my Membership Credit. I flipped my renewal to off Mid July when i received the first "it's normal" from CS.

Edited August 30 by MAY1979

[JustJimN]

On 8/28/2024 at 7:26 AM, Calm-Mix said:

Does anyone know if this is happening with Magazine holders? 

Received four high grade (8.0-9.2) Warren magazines today. No curvatures at all. They all look great.

[joeypost]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:12 PM, electricprune said:

The Vintage tier seems to be far less affected. This is too the point where there have only been a small handful of Vintage books posted.

It looks like it may be certain types of paper that are prone to creasing if the well has a deep enough bend. 
 

I know some of the moderns I work have the ability to easily be damaged if not handled gingerly. Many of these books are manufactured with paper so sensitive to fluctuations in heat, humidity, stress, etc that someone possibly applying the smallest bit of pressure on them trying to fit them in a well may be causing some damage. 

[electricprune]

On 8/29/2024 at 9:25 PM, joeypost said:

It looks like it may be certain types of paper that are prone to creasing if the well has a deep enough bend. 
 

I know some of the moderns I work have the ability to easily be damaged if not handled gingerly. Many of these books are manufactured with paper so sensitive to fluctuations in heat, humidity, stress, etc that someone possibly applying the smallest bit of pressure on them trying to fit them in a well may be causing some damage. 

That’s certainly possible, Joe. But is anyone seeing warped inner wells on Vintage subs that aren’t damaging the books? Maybe they are, I just haven’t seen many.

[Stuk]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:14 PM, wiparker824 said:

Anyone can tag them, they both will pop in if they want, but in terms of increased returns CL doesn’t allow returns as their policy states: 

“No Return Policy. All items sold by COMICLINK are guaranteed authentic unless otherwise indicated. No items sold by COMICLINK are returnable or refundable for any reason.”

MCS allows returns, but not for CGC items as their policy states:

“CGC and CBCS graded comic purchases are not returnable

When buying comics graded and encased by CGC or CBCS, please closely inspect the large, high resolution cover images we provide. When purchasing a third-party graded comic you are accepting ownership of the comic at the grade assigned by the certification company. Disagreeing with the CGC or CBCS grade is not an acceptable reason to return a purchased comic.”

Now MCS also lists books on eBay, where buyers can force returns for 30 days, so that could happen I guess but generally neither of these 2 are going to be really impacted by returns because of their longstanding policies. 

As for the concern of lower hammer prices, maybe this happens in time but I’m not actually seeing that from my poking around. Recently graded books on both sites aren’t getting lower hammer prices at the moment as far as I can tell.

The sellers most impacted by this if it continues to garner attention are going to be the smaller sellers, particularly those on eBay who can be forced to return within 30 days for any reason. And as one of these small time sellers with an eBay account I am quite alarmed and withholding a lot of modern subs at the moment because of it.

 

Regarding COMICLINK (and maybe ComicConnect too?), unless I am mistaken, they have stopped showing back cover images (what the h--? So we are expected to bid $$$ without being able to see the back cover, but that's a different topic) and their zoom function has always been very substandard. So that combination coupled with a strict no returns policy is bad news given bend-gate. At least Heritage and MCS and even Ebay have useful zoom capabilities. For example, because of this, I recently passed on a modern 9.8 SigSeries on Ebay because, when I zoomed in, I clearly saw a bend worthy of a post in these pages. I do think MCS is generally quite reputable. I'd not be surprised to see them start to deal with this in one way or another.

[Iconic1s]

On 8/29/2024 at 4:09 PM, 0r0d said:

However, one thing that occurred to me is that it's hard to capture these bends and ticks adequately on photos and they tend to look worse when you're actually holding the book in hand. 

You did a fine job taking pics and those books are clearly damaged / NOT 9.8’s!

I’m sorry but if I had those books raw, I wouldn’t even try to get them pressed, or submit them.  Being moderns, I would move on and look for better copies, definitely wouldn’t think they are 9.8 candidates.  The only thing making them a “9.8” is the label and cause CGC said so.

CGC is completely full of  at this point if they are trying to convince anyone that is okay.

Sorry that happened to your books!

 

[wiparker824]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:05 PM, Stuk said:

Regarding COMICLINK (and maybe ComicConnect too?), unless I am mistaken, they have stopped showing back cover images (what the h--? So we are expected to bid $$$ without being able to see the back cover, but that's a different topic) and their zoom function has always been very substandard. So that combination coupled with a strict no returns policy is bad news given bend-gate. At least Heritage and MCS and even Ebay have useful zoom capabilities. For example, because of this, I recently passed on a modern 9.8 SigSeries on Ebay because, when I zoomed in, I clearly saw a bend worthy of a post in these pages. I do think MCS is generally quite reputable. I'd not be surprised to see them start to deal with this in one way or another.

CL picks and chooses which books it shows the back covers for. Usually they don’t show a back cover unless the book is like a Batman #1 or something with a really hefty price tag, otherwise front cover is all you get. Although if it’s a book graded recently like most of the impacted ones are you can usually look up the book on CGC with high res scans. Even then you can’t always tell, but it’s something.

Also it’s very possible they all change their policies. As someone who sold on eBay, even though I could be forced to return CGC items up until recently it was always absurd to me when someone did that. It happened, and I processed the return because it’s not worth it and I can’t win but before you’d have people get the book, then say “item doesn’t match description” as reason for return, meaning they don’t agree with CGC’s grade? And that was always crazy to me as someone who posts high res scans I always felt like you bought this book at an 8.0 or whatever you see the scans, you have the grader notes, how can it not be as described? And most of these I assumed were really just buyer’s remorse particularly when the market started its downward trend. So I can see why all of these auction houses had that policy with graded books. The only time a return really made sense was if there was damage in transit, like the case cracked because USPS ran it over or something, then sure, return and I file insurance claim.

We’re entering a different time though with this where a book in a CGC slab actually doesn’t match the description unless you’re posting side views and clearly denoting the degree of bend So, it’s possible they all have to adjust their policies with this.

 

Edited August 30 by wiparker824

[MAY1979]

On 8/29/2024 at 11:05 PM, Stuk said:

Regarding COMICLINK (and maybe ComicConnect too?), unless I am mistaken, they have stopped showing back cover images (what the h--? So we are expected to bid $$$ without being able to see the back cover, but that's a different topic) and their zoom function has always been very substandard. So that combination coupled with a strict no returns policy is bad news given bend-gate. At least Heritage and MCS and even Ebay have useful zoom capabilities. For example, because of this, I recently passed on a modern 9.8 SigSeries on Ebay because, when I zoomed in, I clearly saw a bend worthy of a post in these pages. I do think MCS is generally quite reputable. I'd not be surprised to see them start to deal with this in one way or another.

Regarding ComicLink or Comic Connect: on nearly all items they provide images of merely 1/6 of the Collectible, meaning only the front not the back nor the 4 sides.  3rd party grading or not they would have a difficult time winning a Chargeback Dispute, against anyone willing to walk the Card Issuer through and explain as I said that Merchant only presented 1/6 of the possible views and that on collectibles that is paramount. Remember regardless of outcome the Merchant pays for all associated Dispute costs.

Unlike CGC, I don't think CLINK or Comic Connect can afford a huge increase in Chargebacks not to mention banning long term customers over say a $250 book that was banana bent. Nor will it be good for them for number of bidders decrease (already in progress) due to loss of trust.

They have 2 options as I see it:

1) QC control on their consignments!  CLINK for example will need to look at each CGC slab to ensure each 9.4, 9.6 and 9.8 Comic is flat within the slab - this is best option in terms of Consumer Confidence.

2) Supply a hires pic for each of the 6 sides of a slab. This option may shield them from Chargebacks but if  pics are not super clear on the edges it will lead to an ultra negative perception. After all who will bid if they know they may be wasting their money.

 

@COMICLINK

I've paged Comiclink to see if they will comment on their Return Policy on post Nov 2023 CGC slabs that have "banana bends"/warping/concaving. This way folks reading this thread at least will know if safe to bid on 433 series or higher slabs at their Auction venue

Hello CLINK folks,

Apologies for putting you on the spot but it's critical for many posting here to know that we will not get stuck with damaged 433 and higher CGC series slabs if purchased via your platform.  This likley will affect many books you have at auction right at this very moment. Hoping you will give us an answer that will allow us to maintain the trust you have built the last 25 years.  As believe me there are recently slabbed 9.6 and 9.8 comics you currently have at Auction on my want list, but I've ruled them out due to being way, way too risky given the issues reported in this thread.

Edited August 30 by MAY1979

[Skytripa]

On 8/29/2024 at 6:12 PM, DanJD said:

The video recently posted about “spine stress” with Matt N in it clearly stated a few spine ticks are acceptable in a 9.8 as long as they don’t break color.  It would be helpful if CGC would publish specific knock outs for various grades.  I lost count of the number of times a seller tried to convince me that a color break must have been small enough that CGC still gave it a 9.8.

Based on this I won't worry about these 2 books. The ticks on both look worse with the light but are not color breaking.

[Ryan.]

On 8/29/2024 at 4:03 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I wouldn't really call that a scandal. Everyone knew what they were getting int hat scenario.

When CGC was caught ostensibly selling grades, first to a publisher (Bad Idea), and then later to a dealer (the Acetate nonsense), that SHOULD have been a big scandal that undermined their whole ethics in grading ethos. However, some time passed and everyone stopped caring, as I expect to happen once this warped inner well issue is eventually behind us.

[LordRahl]

On 8/30/2024 at 10:16 AM, Ryan. said:

When CGC was caught ostensibly selling grades, first to a publisher (Bad Idea), and then later to a dealer (the Acetate nonsense), that SHOULD have been a big scandal that undermined their whole ethics in grading ethos. However, some time passed and everyone stopped caring, as I expect to happen once this warped inner well issue is eventually behind us.

I have no idea what either of those "scandals" was about but I fully agree that people will stop caring...IF they fix the issue. Unfortunately so far they have shown a remarkable unwillingness to fix it.

[LordRahl]

On 8/29/2024 at 5:12 PM, electricprune said:

The Vintage tier seems to be far less affected. This is too the point where there have only been a small handful of Vintage books posted.

Not even a small handful, I believe it's just one book. Which could be a complete fluke that is unrelated to how the moderns are being bent. All reports on here and people that I've talked to privately, along with what I've personally gotten back, pretty much all report the same thing which is non-moderns aren't affected. 

[MAY1979]

On 8/30/2024 at 1:19 PM, LordRahl said:

I have no idea what either of those "scandals" was about but I fully agree that people will stop caring...IF they fix the issue. Unfortunately so far they have shown a remarkable unwillingness to fix it.

I still think they are in way too deep.  If they do fix it, that totally invalidates their statements about it being normal. Then they are open to potential ramification$.  The only way to prevent that is to keep damaging books at minimum at same rate they have been.

Edited August 30 by MAY1979

[LordRahl]

On 8/30/2024 at 6:24 AM, MAY1979 said:

Regarding ComicLink or Comic Connect: on nearly all items they provide images of merely 1/6 of the Collectible, meaning only the front not the back nor the 4 sides.  3rd party grading or not they would have a difficult time winning a Chargeback Dispute, against anyone willing to walk the Card Issuer through and explain as I said that Merchant only presented 1/6 of the possible views and that on collectibles that is paramount. Remember regardless of outcome the Merchant pays for all associated Dispute costs.

Unlike CGC, I don't think CLINK or Comic Connect can afford a huge increase in Chargebacks not to mention banning long term customers over say a $250 book that was banana bent. Nor will it be good for them for number of bidders decrease (already in progress) due to loss of trust.

They have 2 options as I see it:

1) QC control on their consignments!  CLINK for example will need to look at each CGC slab to ensure each 9.4, 9.6 and 9.8 Comic is flat within the slab - this is best option in terms of Consumer Confidence.

2) Supply a hires pic for each of the 6 sides of a slab. This option may shield them from Chargebacks but if  pics are not super clear on the edges it will lead to an ultra negative perception. After all who will bid if they know they may be wasting their money.

 

@COMICLINK

I've paged Comiclink to see if they will comment on their Return Policy on post Nov 2023 CGC slabs that have "banana bends"/warping/concaving. This way folks reading this thread at least will know if safe to bid on 433 series or higher slabs at their Auction venue

Hello CLINK folks,

Apologies for putting you on the spot but it's critical for many posting here to know that we will not get stuck with damaged 433 and higher CGC series slabs if purchased via your platform.  This likley will affect many books you have at auction right at this very moment. Hoping you will give us an answer that will allow us to maintain the trust you have built the last 25 years.  As believe me there are recently slabbed 9.6 and 9.8 comics you currently have at Auction on my want list, but I've ruled them out due to being way, way too risky given the issues reported in this thread.

I have no idea how CL will deal with bent books being damaged but my suspicion is they will honor returns despite their stated policy. The one time I had a book damaged by the CGC holder, which was a bad case of SCS, they took the return with absolutely no hassle. Can't speak to HA and CC as I've never had to return anything but at least in CC's case, welllll let's just say that the name Metropolis doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence from me. Complete and total speculation on my part though. 

And best of luck getting any auction house to take side view pics of all these slabs