Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 27 27

[surfertso]

I just received a 9.8 2001 space odyssey and I'm sad to say it got the "bends". Luckily I can still send it back to the dealer.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/29/2024 at 5:58 PM, surfertso said:

I just received a 9.8 2001 space odyssey and I'm sad to say it got the "bends". Luckily I can still send it back to the dealer.

[0r0d]

On 9/29/2024 at 5:58 PM, surfertso said:

I just received a 9.8 2001 space odyssey and I'm sad to say it got the "bends". Luckily I can still send it back to the dealer.

Oh jesus that looks terrible.  

When is the class action lawsuit getting started?  I hope someone has already started talking to lawyers, because this is out of control and CGC has now clearly shown by their words and inaction that they refuse to voluntarily fix this issue or make recompense to the customers they're screwed over.  

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/29/2024 at 5:58 PM, surfertso said:

I just received a 9.8 2001 space odyssey and I'm sad to say it got the "bends". Luckily I can still send it back to the dealer.

 

[justafan]

I submitted 11 moderns at baltimore comiccon for onsite grading.  I was planning on dropping off a 25 book modern and a 15 book High Value for them to take back to Sarasota on Sunday but after I started reading this thread it gave me pause and I realized I needed to hold off on sending any more books at least until I got back my onsite graded books to see.  I got all my onsite books back on Sunday and started going through them.  None of them show any spine tick damage that wasn't already present prior to my drop off and none of them have the level of extreme bowing/bending that has been presented on this thread from the severe cases.  Furthermore, none have the appearance of the cover showing ripples or waves radiating from the middle of the spine outward to the center of the book. 

However, they all do exhibit a very slight curvature of the inner well due to how it sits in the case and in 1 of them, the non-color break spine tick that I had pressed out is now noticeable again due to the slight bowing of the comic.  

The comics are actually laying flat against the back and front panels of the inner well.  However, the inner well itself is bowed and sagging due to how it sits in the case.  What I mean is that in these new slabs there are a pair of spacers or supports that you can see by looking at the top back of the slab just below the label where the indent from the label chamber meets the comic chamber.  Both of these supports are about 1 inch from the left and right side of the slab and extend 1mm to meet the top edge of the inner well and create a perpendicular wall to compensate for the diagonal wall of the label chamber.   They are only 1mm wide and maybe 2-3mm long running from the back case panel to the front case panel.  Not sure if the previous cases have these spacers but I'll check my comics.  Anyways, when I first saw these it looked like these 2 supports were holding the top of the inner well lip elevated from the back panel of the slab roughly 1-2mm above it and pressed against the front panel of the slab. However, upon closer inspection, the top lip of the inner well is simple resting firmly against the corner that the spacer makes with the front slab panel.  The bottom of the slab doesn't appear to have any such spacers but the bottom sealed lip of the inner well appears to be sitting against the front panel of the slab and also elevated about 1mm above the back panel of the slab.  Upon close examination of that bottom area it appears that the bottom lip of the inner well is either being wedged against the corner peg-colunms (posts) OR in the groove/seam created by the top and bottom case panels.  I suspect the inner well is being suspended above the back panel of the slab by points at the top and bottom of the case but without a support in the middle which is causing the middle to sag due to gravity or worse, the presence of the spacers are not leaving enough space for the inner well to actually lay flat due to being compressed at the top and bottom.   I'll post some pictures of what I'm seeing but you can easily see this if you hold up your case with the spine side facing you in front of a bright white monitor screen such as this forum.  It also helps to use a magnifier lamp as well for those with old eyes.  For now I used a crude drawing to show what I mean.

To me the problem is either:

1. An inner well length issue: The inner wells are too long and not enough is being trimmed off the top and bottom edges when placing them into the case prior to sealing the case.
2. They are inserting the inner well comic front cover face down onto the front case panel and then placing the back case panel on top trapping the top and bottom lip of the inner well

My theory is that this issue could be easily eliminated or resolved if they either:

1. Trim some excess plastic off the top and/or bottom of the inner well to allow it to lay flat
2. cut 1mm notches into the top edge of the inner well lip to line up with the 2 spacers which would both server as a compression relief and lock the inner well in place preventing it from shifting or shaking inside the slab.
3. removed the 2 spacers at the top which may free up enough horizontal space to allow the inner well to lay flat against the front or back of the case. However, the reason for these spacers may be to prevent the inner well from being able to slide freely back and forth.  I do have some slabs where this occurs so I'll check them out to see if they show bowing.

I hope the operations and materials guys at CGC see this and can analyze how to better allow the entire inner well to lay uniformly flat against either the front or back of the case panels.  I suspect this would require adding an additional check or step in the sealing prep process or ordering the inner wells in a size 1mm shorter than they currently are.

[CGC Mike]

On 9/30/2024 at 1:59 AM, justafan said:

I hope the operations and materials guys at CGC see this and can analyze how to better allow the entire inner well to lay uniformly flat against either the front or back of the case panels.

I will pass your post along to the team.

[Berkfam54]

On 9/30/2024 at 12:59 AM, justafan said:

I submitted 11 moderns at baltimore comiccon for onsite grading.  I was planning on dropping off a 25 book modern and a 15 book High Value for them to take back to Sarasota on Sunday but after I started reading this thread it gave me pause and I realized I needed to hold off on sending any more books at least until I got back my onsite graded books to see.  I got all my onsite books back on Sunday and started going through them.  None of them show any spine tick damage that wasn't already present prior to my drop off and none of them have the level of extreme bowing/bending that has been presented on this thread from the severe cases.  Furthermore, none have the appearance of the cover showing ripples or waves radiating from the middle of the spine outward to the center of the book. 

However, they all do exhibit a very slight curvature of the inner well due to how it sits in the case and in 1 of them, the non-color break spine tick that I had pressed out is now noticeable again due to the slight bowing of the comic.  

The comics are actually laying flat against the back and front panels of the inner well.  However, the inner well itself is bowed and sagging due to how it sits in the case.  What I mean is that in these new slabs there are a pair of spacers or supports that you can see by looking at the top back of the slab just below the label where the indent from the label chamber meets the comic chamber.  Both of these supports are about 1 inch from the left and right side of the slab and extend 1mm to meet the top edge of the inner well and create a perpendicular wall to compensate for the diagonal wall of the label chamber.   They are only 1mm wide and maybe 2-3mm long running from the back case panel to the front case panel.  Not sure if the previous cases have these spacers but I'll check my comics.  Anyways, when I first saw these it looked like these 2 supports were holding the top of the inner well lip elevated from the back panel of the slab roughly 1-2mm above it and pressed against the front panel of the slab. However, upon closer inspection, the top lip of the inner well is simple resting firmly against the corner that the spacer makes with the front slab panel.  The bottom of the slab doesn't appear to have any such spacers but the bottom sealed lip of the inner well appears to be sitting against the front panel of the slab and also elevated about 1mm above the back panel of the slab.  Upon close examination of that bottom area it appears that the bottom lip of the inner well is either being wedged against the corner peg-colunms (posts) OR in the groove/seam created by the top and bottom case panels.  I suspect the inner well is being suspended above the back panel of the slab by points at the top and bottom of the case but without a support in the middle which is causing the middle to sag due to gravity or worse, the presence of the spacers are not leaving enough space for the inner well to actually lay flat due to being compressed at the top and bottom.   I'll post some pictures of what I'm seeing but you can easily see this if you hold up your case with the spine side facing you in front of a bright white monitor screen such as this forum.  It also helps to use a magnifier lamp as well for those with old eyes.  For now I used a crude drawing to show what I mean.

To me the problem is either:

1. An inner well length issue: The inner wells are too long and not enough is being trimmed off the top and bottom edges when placing them into the case prior to sealing the case.
2. They are inserting the inner well comic front cover face down onto the front case panel and then placing the back case panel on top trapping the top and bottom lip of the inner well

My theory is that this issue could be easily eliminated or resolved if they either:

1. Trim some excess plastic off the top and/or bottom of the inner well to allow it to lay flat
2. cut 1mm notches into the top edge of the inner well lip to line up with the 2 spacers which would both server as a compression relief and lock the inner well in place preventing it from shifting or shaking inside the slab.
3. removed the 2 spacers at the top which may free up enough horizontal space to allow the inner well to lay flat against the front or back of the case. However, the reason for these spacers may be to prevent the inner well from being able to slide freely back and forth.  I do have some slabs where this occurs so I'll check them out to see if they show bowing.

I hope the operations and materials guys at CGC see this and can analyze how to better allow the entire inner well to lay uniformly flat against either the front or back of the case panels.  I suspect this would require adding an additional check or step in the sealing prep process or ordering the inner wells in a size 1mm shorter than they currently are.

I mean regardless it shouldn't be happening. 

[surfertso]

On 9/30/2024 at 12:09 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

My copy has at least six stress points. This looks bad even for a 9.0

[MadGenius]

On 9/30/2024 at 1:59 AM, justafan said:

I submitted 11 moderns at baltimore comiccon for onsite grading.  I was planning on dropping off a 25 book modern and a 15 book High Value for them to take back to Sarasota on Sunday but after I started reading this thread it gave me pause and I realized I needed to hold off on sending any more books at least until I got back my onsite graded books to see.  I got all my onsite books back on Sunday and started going through them.  None of them show any spine tick damage that wasn't already present prior to my drop off and none of them have the level of extreme bowing/bending that has been presented on this thread from the severe cases.  Furthermore, none have the appearance of the cover showing ripples or waves radiating from the middle of the spine outward to the center of the book. 

However, they all do exhibit a very slight curvature of the inner well due to how it sits in the case and in 1 of them, the non-color break spine tick that I had pressed out is now noticeable again due to the slight bowing of the comic.  

The comics are actually laying flat against the back and front panels of the inner well.  However, the inner well itself is bowed and sagging due to how it sits in the case.  What I mean is that in these new slabs there are a pair of spacers or supports that you can see by looking at the top back of the slab just below the label where the indent from the label chamber meets the comic chamber.  Both of these supports are about 1 inch from the left and right side of the slab and extend 1mm to meet the top edge of the inner well and create a perpendicular wall to compensate for the diagonal wall of the label chamber.   They are only 1mm wide and maybe 2-3mm long running from the back case panel to the front case panel.  Not sure if the previous cases have these spacers but I'll check my comics.  Anyways, when I first saw these it looked like these 2 supports were holding the top of the inner well lip elevated from the back panel of the slab roughly 1-2mm above it and pressed against the front panel of the slab. However, upon closer inspection, the top lip of the inner well is simple resting firmly against the corner that the spacer makes with the front slab panel.  The bottom of the slab doesn't appear to have any such spacers but the bottom sealed lip of the inner well appears to be sitting against the front panel of the slab and also elevated about 1mm above the back panel of the slab.  Upon close examination of that bottom area it appears that the bottom lip of the inner well is either being wedged against the corner peg-colunms (posts) OR in the groove/seam created by the top and bottom case panels.  I suspect the inner well is being suspended above the back panel of the slab by points at the top and bottom of the case but without a support in the middle which is causing the middle to sag due to gravity or worse, the presence of the spacers are not leaving enough space for the inner well to actually lay flat due to being compressed at the top and bottom.   I'll post some pictures of what I'm seeing but you can easily see this if you hold up your case with the spine side facing you in front of a bright white monitor screen such as this forum.  It also helps to use a magnifier lamp as well for those with old eyes.  For now I used a crude drawing to show what I mean.

To me the problem is either:

1. An inner well length issue: The inner wells are too long and not enough is being trimmed off the top and bottom edges when placing them into the case prior to sealing the case.
2. They are inserting the inner well comic front cover face down onto the front case panel and then placing the back case panel on top trapping the top and bottom lip of the inner well

My theory is that this issue could be easily eliminated or resolved if they either:

1. Trim some excess plastic off the top and/or bottom of the inner well to allow it to lay flat
2. cut 1mm notches into the top edge of the inner well lip to line up with the 2 spacers which would both server as a compression relief and lock the inner well in place preventing it from shifting or shaking inside the slab.
3. removed the 2 spacers at the top which may free up enough horizontal space to allow the inner well to lay flat against the front or back of the case. However, the reason for these spacers may be to prevent the inner well from being able to slide freely back and forth.  I do have some slabs where this occurs so I'll check them out to see if they show bowing.

I hope the operations and materials guys at CGC see this and can analyze how to better allow the entire inner well to lay uniformly flat against either the front or back of the case panels.  I suspect this would require adding an additional check or step in the sealing prep process or ordering the inner wells in a size 1mm shorter than they currently are.

Thank you for this breakdown. It's a sad state of affairs when customers who receive a compromised product have to do the engineering work that CGC clearly refuses to do.

[surfertso]

I'm holding off buying anymore CGC graded books until this is all sorted out 

[surfertso]

On 9/30/2024 at 12:09 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

On 9/30/2024 at 12:09 AM, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

Same book multiple victims.

Edited September 30 by surfertso

[justafan]

On 9/30/2024 at 7:54 AM, CGC Mike said:

I will pass your post along to the team.

Thank you, Mike.

[Barrakuda]

While I have not slabbed any of my own books and have decided not to send the pile of books I had prepared to CGC, I have purchased the occasional slab.  For completeness and date verification, I finally pulled out a couple of my affected slabs again and took some pictures to share.  I apologize in advance for the photo quality and any glare.

First is a Purgatori #1 slabbed on 5/27/2022.  Not a full banana and more of an angle in the case where the top is higher than the bottom, but there is still a slight bend and you can see a little curvature.  There is a tiny white dot mid-spine, but I'm not sure if that is the start of a tick or just a particle of dust in the well on the book. There is otherwise no apparent damage or creasing.  This isn't bad and I don't expect damage to occur over time (wishful thinking?), but it is still poor QC and evidence of problems as far back as 2022.

 

Second is my X-Men 97 (no, not the series ) slabbed on 05/04/2023.  It's a full-on banana.  Only a 6.5, but the spine ticks on Nightcrawler have definitely worsened since my original purchase.  I unfortunately do not have any good photos from before to show for contrast.  And regardless of grade, the holder should not be adding stress, exacerbating existing damage, and certainly not creating new damage.

Edited September 30 by Barrakuda

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/30/2024 at 12:59 AM, justafan said:

To me the problem is either:

1. An inner well length issue: The inner wells are too long and not enough is being trimmed off the top and bottom edges when placing them into the case prior to sealing the case.
2. They are inserting the inner well comic front cover face down onto the front case panel and then placing the back case panel on top trapping the top and bottom lip of the inner well

I think you could be spot on.  I was looking at one of my newer cases a couple of days ago while trying to figure out what could be going wrong.  I pretty much came to the same conclusion that you did.  These newer cases essentially have a sealed off area where the label goes (the older cases weren't like this).  Which means the inner well that holds the book now has a limited area (vertically) to fit in the outer case.  So, I agree with you.

1) Either the inner well is too long and is being jammed into a space that is (vertically) too small for it.....which is causing it to bow.

Or

2) The top and bottom of the inner well is somehow becoming trapped against the front case panel, leaving the center of the book to sag down where it's not supported.  Although, I believe a small number of people have mentioned that their books are bowed in the opposite direction (center is bowed upwards), so I'm not sure about this one.

 

[Rhett Christopher]

On 9/30/2024 at 7:54 AM, CGC Mike said:

I will pass your post along to the team.

Pass it on to the team? They should already know this but are ignoring the problem and the results are disastrous as it has damaged books of value due to CGC not fixing the problem/quality control and NOT making those of us affected by this problem whole again after causing color breaking spine ticks and dimpled spines to our graded books in theses cases that were supposed to have been changed out some time ago.

I don't get it!

Very disappointed with CGC!

[MadGenius]

On 9/30/2024 at 8:56 PM, Domo Arigato said:

I think you could be spot on.  I was looking at one of my newer cases a couple of days ago while trying to figure out what could be going wrong.  I pretty much came to the same conclusion that you did.  These newer cases essentially have a sealed off area where the label goes (the older cases weren't like this).  Which means the inner well that holds the book now has a limited area (vertically) to fit in the outer case.  So, I agree with you.

1) Either the inner well is too long and is being jammed into a space that is (vertically) too small for it.....which is causing it to bow.

Or

2) The top and bottom of the inner well is somehow becoming trapped against the front case panel, leaving the center of the book to sag down where it's not supported.  Although, I believe a small number of people have mentioned that their books are bowed in the opposite direction (center is bowed upwards), so I'm not sure about this one.

 

I'm not sure if inner well length is 100% to blame. If it was, then 100% of CGC slabs would be showing the curve to the inner well. There are a certain percentage of inner wells that are completely straight, so that should tell us that CGC IS capable of getting it right sometimes. My best guess is a combination of LESS room inside the slab due to the tighter seal around the outer case AND some measure of poor technique practiced by those encapsulating books.

[0r0d]

On 9/30/2024 at 7:15 PM, MadGenius said:

I'm not sure if inner well length is 100% to blame. If it was, then 100% of CGC slabs would be showing the curve to the inner well. There are a certain percentage of inner wells that are completely straight, so that should tell us that CGC IS capable of getting it right sometimes. My best guess is a combination of LESS room inside the slab due to the tighter seal around the outer case AND some measure of poor technique practiced by those encapsulating books.

True.  If the inner well size relative to the inside of the slab was the issue, then it would manifest in EVERY book.  There's something else going on there.

Edited October 1 by 0r0d

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/30/2024 at 9:15 PM, MadGenius said:

I'm not sure if inner well length is 100% to blame. If it was, then 100% of CGC slabs would be showing the curve to the inner well. There are a certain percentage of inner wells that are completely straight, so that should tell us that CGC IS capable of getting it right sometimes. My best guess is a combination of LESS room inside the slab due to the tighter seal around the outer case AND some measure of poor technique practiced by those encapsulating books.

It's tough to say what's 100% to blame.  But, looking at the newer cases, how would a tighter seal around the outer case edge cause less room vertically for the inner well?  If the tighter seal is to blame, then that should cause 100% of the slabs to be showing the curve, since they all get the same seal.

If you look at old slabs, the interior space of the outer shell was entirely open, with no seperation between the label and the book.  The current design has a seperate (closed off) area to hold the label.  This means there's a more confined space for the inner well to vertically fit.  And, even if some inner wells fit without curving, there's likely to be small variations in size from one batch to another....or even within the same batch.  A tiny variation in length could mean the difference between a book sitting flat or being bowed within the confined space of the newer slabs.

 

[DanJD]

On 9/28/2024 at 7:11 PM, CGC Mike said:

I will ask the team about this on Monday.  If I am given something to post, I will be sure to do so.

Hi.  I am curious what the teams response was to this yesterday.

[nuffsaid111]

I'm trying to figure out if there is another industry/hobby anywhere in the world where customers are supposed to be finding the problem. Determining root causes(s) of the problem, & solving the problem?

Further, what industry/hobby barely acknowledges the presence of a systemic issue that is repeatedly brought to attention on a daily basis?

I seriously cant think of an industry/hobby where I, the customer, has to do the work from start --> end, including solving a problem for the company. It's just bizarre to me and worthy of a Action Comics solo Bizarro story