Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 25 25

[LordRahl]

On 8/11/2024 at 12:06 PM, Stuk said:

 

--Whether it harms the visual presentation or actually damages the book, it is a problem, right? No need to nitpick between them. But I will. Even if short term it doesn't physically harm the book-- and granted, I am not a scientist--one would think that after enough time, it will physically harm the book. 

 

This right here. It's getting glossed over even though I pointed it out previously, but regardless of whether or not it's stressing the spine and putting new stress ticks on the book or just making existing stress worse, it's damaging the book because after several years, these books will come out no longer laying flat but will curl where they lay bent in the inner well for years on end.

[LordRahl]

On 8/11/2024 at 7:44 AM, Stefan_W said:

The worst part is he would have been better off actually acknowledging my posts. His approach was to take a book and bend it a bit, which is fine for most people and keeps the flow of the story he is telling moving. But not all flexes are equal and it is extremely important to get it right. I measuring everything so I made sure the amount of bend was correct, and when I test further out of curiosity damage started to occur on books with about a 1/4 inch more bend. So we are fortunate the cases do not have much room on the inside. In any event, you cant convincingly show all of that by just bending a book a bit and saying "nope, no damage."

But what you didn't do, for obvious reasons, is hold the book at that bent angle for 10 years to see if it would still lay flat after being in a curved position for years. Spoiler alert... it won't lay flat after sitting bent for 10 years.

[Stefan_W]

On 8/11/2024 at 5:26 PM, LordRahl said:

But what you didn't do, for obvious reasons, is hold the book at that bent angle for 10 years to see if it would still lay flat after being in a curved position for years. Spoiler alert... it won't lay flat after sitting bent for 10 years.

True.

But I have worked on books that have been bent for longer than that which ended up with no structural damage. Sorry, no need for spoilers since I have dealt with thousands of books like that. If you want them to lay flat again after that point you can either press them (the fast way) or put a stack of heavy books on them (the slow way). Or, and this is important, if the book is already in a slab you can keep it there and it will stay undamaged. Whether a person opts to do so will likely depend on how it looks. 

The specific trouble is with instances where the book looks worse or like they have not been pressed even though they have. This is the very specific issue that is going to arise from all of this and the solution space is a matter of picking your poison. If CGC does nothing their brand can take a hit and they will likely lose customers, but if they do ME returns on undamaged books it will be extremely expensive and hard to justify to the shareholders. I wouldn't want to be the one making that decision. 

[DanJD]

By chance is the person selling this on social media on this forum?  I am curious if this book had all these color breaking spine ticks prior to being sent in to be graded and if this book has a warped spine given the grading date and symptoms.

[LordRahl]

On 8/11/2024 at 3:09 PM, Stefan_W said:

True.

But I have worked on books that have been bent for longer than that which ended up with no structural damage. Sorry, no need for spoilers since I have dealt with thousands of books like that. If you want them to lay flat again after that point you can either press them (the fast way) or put a stack of heavy books on them (the slow way). Or, and this is important, if the book is already in a slab you can keep it there and it will stay undamaged. Whether a person opts to do so will likely depend on how it looks. 

The specific trouble is with instances where the book looks worse or like they have not been pressed even though they have. This is the very specific issue that is going to arise from all of this and the solution space is a matter of picking your poison. If CGC does nothing their brand can take a hit and they will likely lose customers, but if they do ME returns on undamaged books it will be extremely expensive and hard to justify to the shareholders. I wouldn't want to be the one making that decision. 

You are saying the bent inner wells aren't causing damage, just making damage that is already there look worse. My counter to that is that the wells ARE causing damage, it's just going to take a long time for the damage to manifest. I get that it is pressable damage but just because it's fixable with pressing, doesn't make it not damage. It's still damage, otherwise it would not need a press to be fixed. As for just leaving it in the slab so you can't see that the book no longer lays flat, while a true statement, it misses the point. There's all kinds of reasons to break books out of slabs, I have a ton of raw books that were previously in a slab, some of them multi thousand $ books. I like looking at them raw, that's my prerogative. I shouldn't have to press a book I broke out just because the well caused the book to curl over time and it couldn't be seen through the slab. Pressing costs money and has some risk associated with it in terms of potential damage.

At the end of the day, I think we all agree CGC needs to fix the issue. I think where we might disagree is how much urgency they need to put behind it. Inherently for those that believe damage is being done, there is a high degree of urgency whereas if you think this is an aesthetic problem there probably isn't the same sense of urgency.

[Ninja0215]

So, I'm looking at my books.  I have only found three candidates for this problem.  Might not be as bad as others but for the time it is a problem.  

So, my final decision is this: I'm going to keep my membership and use cgc again . BUT; ONLY TILL I KNOW THIS WAS RESOLVED.  ( not yelling, just stating).  Cgc has to come up with a convincing statement for not just me but the customer base as a whole that; going forward,  this won't be an issue.  In the meantime,  my raw books will go to the other grading company.  No need to name names, we know which one. I like their slab and it's a quality product.  Any books I DO send here will be inspected more throughly . Even books I buy; at cons or elsewhere.  

Cgc is the (supposed) standard so stand by that then. And do better. 👍

[Ninja0215]

Update: still have not heard from CS about the issue. I want to make it clear that I don't want any incentives (extra credits,  discount , free grading etc.) Just please address the issues at hand.  

I showed my wife my ASM 41 and she can easily tell that the book is curved . Maybe it's the well or maybe it's the whole book; not sure.  Somebody's prized possession,  grail or whichever you want to coin it; is going to get damaged.  

Looking out for everyone  since this isn't just about me. 

[Ninja0215]

Second update: I did receive a response saying that the images I sent to the CS rep were rviwed by the grading team.  I was told  that  THIS WAS NORMAL AND FIT THE GRADING STANDARDS. For right now , grading with cgc in the future is uncertain. I will more than likely be grading these books elsewhere.  Sorry but that's the way it has to be.  

 

I can't tell you what to do with your money/books in the same way you can't tell me what to do with mine. At this point,  this is the best option. I'll be here on the boards still to see how this unfolds. Ty 

[MAY1979]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:51 PM, Ninja0215 said:

Second update: I did receive a response saying that the images I sent to the CS rep were rviwed by the grading team.  I was told  that  THIS WAS NORMAL AND FIT THE GRADING STANDARDS. For right now , grading with cgc in the future is uncertain.

Purchasing post 2022/2023 slabs too for you ?

[Ninja0215]

On 8/12/2024 at 4:20 PM, MAR1979 said:

Purchasing post 2022/2023 slabs too for you ?

Maybe, we'll see.  If they look okay then yes but I'll be looking at each one a little closer. 

[Gaard]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:51 PM, Ninja0215 said:

I was told  that  THIS WAS NORMAL AND FIT THE GRADING STANDARDS.

Warping/Curling, of any amount, is considered normal and within grading standards?

What was once considered an excessive amount of newton rings is now considered normal and within specs.

And let's not forget this stoopid 14 day rule concerning plastic shards, scratches and scuffs, debris (including insects), etc.

What kind of person/company/business makes these kinds of decisions?

 

[Ninja0215]

On 8/12/2024 at 5:29 PM, Gaard said:

Warping/Curling, of any amount, is considered normal and within grading standards?

What was once considered an excessive amount of newton rings is now considered normal and within specs.

And let's not forget this stoopid 14 day rule concerning plastic shards, scratches and scuffs, debris (including insects), etc.

What kind of person/company/business makes these kinds of decisions?

 

Someone that doesn't want to stay in business.  I told the rep in the email I sent that the answer of normal is not acceptable.  

[MAY1979]

On 8/12/2024 at 5:29 PM, Gaard said:

Warping/Curling, of any amount, is considered normal and within grading standards?

What was once considered an excessive amount of newton rings is now considered normal and within specs.

And let's not forget this stoopid 14 day rule concerning plastic shards, scratches and scuffs, debris (including insects), etc.

What kind of person/company/business makes these kinds of decisions?

 

execs who's only true goal is to pad their next bonus then skedaddle to wreck havoc at another firm 

Or a parent company doing a pump n dump

[Dave616]

On 8/12/2024 at 3:51 PM, Ninja0215 said:

Second update: I did receive a response saying that the images I sent to the CS rep were rviwed by the grading team.  I was told  that  THIS WAS NORMAL AND FIT THE GRADING STANDARDS. For right now , grading with cgc in the future is uncertain. I will more than likely be grading these books elsewhere.  Sorry but that's the way it has to be.  

 

I can't tell you what to do with your money/books in the same way you can't tell me what to do with mine. At this point,  this is the best option. I'll be here on the boards still to see how this unfolds. Ty 

CGC is trash. 

[Ninja0215]

On 8/12/2024 at 5:51 PM, Dave616 said:

CGC is trash. 

I just don't understand why they can't just say " Hey, we screwed up! " any books believed to be affected by this issue can be sent in and reviewed" . This isn't that hard. Also, maybe take a closer look at each book as it goes onto the well. Simple. 

[DanJD]

On 8/12/2024 at 4:55 PM, Ninja0215 said:

I just don't understand why they can't just say " Hey, we screwed up! " any books believed to be affected by this issue can be sent in and reviewed" . This isn't that hard. Also, maybe take a closer look at each book as it goes onto the well. Simple. 

Because this has been going on for so long.  They clearly don’t want to pay out on the damages and enough people seem to not mind their books being bent.  Sellers mostly care about the grade.  I stopped counting how many times I have heard that 3-5 color breaking ticks are allowable on a 9.8 for books I wanted more photos on that I was considering purchasing.  

[crazyhips]

On 8/12/2024 at 5:29 PM, Gaard said:

Warping/Curling, of any amount, is considered normal and within grading standards?

What was once considered an excessive amount of newton rings is now considered normal and within specs.

And let's not forget this stoopid 14 day rule concerning plastic shards, scratches and scuffs, debris (including insects), etc.

What kind of person/company/business makes these kinds of decisions?

 

One that doesn’t have a healthy amount of competition. 

[Ninja0215]

That might change come 2025...JS 

[WernerVonDoom]

I just bought an early 90s book on eBay that was graded on 7/29/24. It is crazy warped both vertically and horizontally. I'm not buying any more books until this is fixed. My god. @CGC Mike

As second owner, I guess I am out of luck. I'm not throwing any good money after bad to get this re-holdered.

[DanJD]

On 8/12/2024 at 6:58 PM, WernerVonDoom said:

I just bought an early 90s book on eBay that was graded on 7/29/24. It is crazy warped both vertically and horizontally. I'm not buying any more books until this is fixed. My god. @CGC Mike

As second owner, I guess I am out of luck. I'm not throwing any good money after bad to get this re-holdered.

Return it to seller?  If enough get returned, sellers might put pressure on the company to fix it. Apparently small volume collector submissions doesn’t matter to CGC.