Is anyone else getting books back with warped inner wells? 24 24

[Stefan_W]

People are going to get upset at this like they always are, but the statement that the amount of curve allowed within a CGC holder cannot cause the damage we are seeing in some books is demonstrably true. I have measured this and time and time again and the damage we have seen cannot be reproduced with that amount of bend. That amount of curve can produce stress along the paper though that does detract from eye appeal if you look closer at the book. 

Whether there is a greater curve prior to going in to the holder, or other issues impacting on some books, is a separate but related question. Damage that was done came from somewhere. 

[lollyclown]

On 9/6/2024 at 1:50 PM, CGC Mike said:

Hi all

I have not read today's posts yet, as I am on vacation.  Here is a new statement that I have been given to post.

We have seen reports that some of the soft-plastic wells used inside of the CGC holder exhibit a curve when viewed from the side. After learning of this, we conducted an extensive review and found that the smallest well size, which is used for the thinnest comic books, is more pliable than other wells and, in some cases, will exhibit a slight curve.

Importantly, this curve does not cause any damage to the comic book, and it does not affect the grade in any way. The angle of bend required to create a stress line simply cannot be done within the CGC holder. In addition, very high grade comic books can still exhibit minimal stress lines according to CGC’s official grading standards.

We do not consider this slight curve to be a mechanical error that requires reholdering. Still, we are always listening and want to serve our customers the best way we can. We have found that our next-largest well size does not exhibit this slight curve and have started to use that well in lieu of our smallest size.

We appreciate all of the feedback from our community, and we are grateful to be the hobby’s first choice for grading for nearly 25 years. Many of us are collectors too, and we care deeply about the services that we provide. If you have any comments, questions or concerns, please write to us at Service@CGCcomics.com or call or text us at +1-855-GRADE10.

I'm sorry, and you seem like a really nice guy with a good reputation, but this is entirely bull****. How much more evidence needs to be presented here? I'm sorry they put you in a position that leads to you being the one who gets dumped on when this is clearly not your fault and you try to do your best with us.

I am holding in my hands a book right now that has seven spine ticks in it that it did not have prior to submission or even upon receiving it in the mail immediately. It is, however curved, which is more than enough to cause spine ticks  to develop over time. You put stress on anything, even if it is a slight amount of stress, and damage is going to happen.

As for caring deeply? After the treatment I personally received at the hands of a senior director there, unless for some reason I am a complete anomaly (which based on dozens upon dozens of people with similar experience does not seem to be the case) one thing that most definitely does not exist is caring.

I have a lot of emails I can post relating to two different books back to back that will entirely refute the caring aspect.

I hope this company enjoys the previous 25 years of being the first choice because that is not going to be the case for the next 25 years.

Edited September 6 by lollyclown

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/6/2024 at 12:05 PM, Stefan_W said:

the amount of curve allowed within a CGC holder cannot cause the damage we are seeing in some books is demonstrably true.

[MadGenius]

On 9/6/2024 at 3:05 PM, Stefan_W said:

People are going to get upset at this like they always are, but the statement that the amount of curve allowed within a CGC holder cannot cause the damage we are seeing in some books is demonstrably true. I have measured this and time and time again and the damage we have seen cannot be reproduced with that amount of bend. That amount of curve can produce stress along the paper though that does detract from eye appeal if you look closer at the book. 

Whether there is a greater curve prior to going in to the holder, or other issues impacting on some books, is a separate but related question. Damage that was done came from somewhere. 

ANY amount of curve to a book COULD cause damage. In order to remain high grade, comics need to be stored flat. ANY amount of curve to the inner well is unacceptable no matter how much CGC wants to claim otherwise.

[Yorick]

On 9/6/2024 at 12:02 PM, LordRahl said:

It doesn't cost any less to grade a 1975 book than a 1974 book

Perhaps it does.  Perhaps that is what we are seeing here.  Mike's forwarded statement (I'd hate to be the messenger here) indicates different materials being used.

[lollyclown]

On 9/6/2024 at 2:11 PM, MadGenius said:

ANY amount of curve to a book COULD cause damage. In order to remain high grade, comics need to be stored flat. ANY amount of curve to the inner well is unacceptable no matter how much CGC wants to claim otherwise.

Exactly. As collectors I would guess that almost everybody here has had a book end up in their box that wasn't pushed quite flat between the rest of them and has damage from a minimal amount of pressure.

[RockMyAmadeus]

[electricprune]

It is Friday, after all.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 9/6/2024 at 12:11 PM, MadGenius said:

ANY amount of curve to a book COULD cause damage. In order to remain high grade, comics need to be stored flat.

 

ANY amount of curve to the inner well is unacceptable

no matter how much CGC wants to claim otherwise.

 

[MadGenius]

Classic Friday bad news dump. CGC is hoping the fury dies down over the weekend.

Narrator voice: It would not.

Edited September 6 by MadGenius

[MadGenius]

On 9/6/2024 at 2:50 PM, CGC Mike said:

Hi all

I have not read today's posts yet, as I am on vacation.  Here is a new statement that I have been given to post.

We have seen reports that some of the soft-plastic wells used inside of the CGC holder exhibit a curve when viewed from the side. After learning of this, we conducted an extensive review and found that the smallest well size, which is used for the thinnest comic books, is more pliable than other wells and, in some cases, will exhibit a slight curve.

Importantly, this curve does not cause any damage to the comic book, and it does not affect the grade in any way. The angle of bend required to create a stress line simply cannot be done within the CGC holder. In addition, very high grade comic books can still exhibit minimal stress lines according to CGC’s official grading standards.

We do not consider this slight curve to be a mechanical error that requires reholdering. Still, we are always listening and want to serve our customers the best way we can. We have found that our next-largest well size does not exhibit this slight curve and have started to use that well in lieu of our smallest size.

We appreciate all of the feedback from our community, and we are grateful to be the hobby’s first choice for grading for nearly 25 years. Many of us are collectors too, and we care deeply about the services that we provide. If you have any comments, questions or concerns, please write to us at Service@CGCcomics.com or call or text us at +1-855-GRADE10.

This is an interesting part of the statement. So this smaller inner well is more pliable. Fair enough. I assume CGC has been using these wells for quite a while. Why haven't they curved before recently? I think we just got confirmation that the new sealing techniques are applying too much pressure to the inner well...

[Stefan_W]

On 9/6/2024 at 3:11 PM, MadGenius said:

ANY amount of curve to a book COULD cause damage. In order to remain high grade, comics need to be stored flat. ANY amount of curve to the inner well is unacceptable no matter how much CGC wants to claim otherwise.

Yes, curve is not ok with graded comics and should not appear in slabs. 

The part about any amount of curve causing damage is simply not the case unless you want to apply circular reasoning (a curve is damage therefore any amount of curve damages the book). I can show you dozens of slabs in my boxes with a small curve where no damage was done. I am concerned with books that actually are damaged and figuring out what the mechanism behind that damage was. 

[MadGenius]

On 9/6/2024 at 3:23 PM, Stefan_W said:

Yes, curve is not ok with graded comics and should not appear in slabs. 

The part about any amount of curve causing damage is simply not the case unless you want to apply circular reasoning (a curve is damage therefore any amount of curve damages the book). I can show you dozens of slabs in my boxes with a small curve where no damage was done. I am concerned with books that actually are damaged and figuring out what the mechanism behind that damage was. 

Yes, the curved wells are not damaging books 100% of the time. But it's also not damaging them 0% of the time either. I think it's fair to say 100% of collectors would prefer the flat inner well to the curved inner well, so there's that. 

[Berkfam54]

My 3 books arrived back at CGC today according to Fedex tracking. Hoping to hear back something by next week. 

[lollyclown]

On 9/6/2024 at 2:14 PM, electricprune said:

It is Friday, after all.

In reference to your profile pic, they are hoping we pull the wool over our own eyes. ;)

Praise "Bob"!

[DanJD]

On 9/6/2024 at 1:50 PM, CGC Mike said:

Hi all

I have not read today's posts yet, as I am on vacation.  Here is a new statement that I have been given to post.

We have seen reports that some of the soft-plastic wells used inside of the CGC holder exhibit a curve when viewed from the side. After learning of this, we conducted an extensive review and found that the smallest well size, which is used for the thinnest comic books, is more pliable than other wells and, in some cases, will exhibit a slight curve.

Importantly, this curve does not cause any damage to the comic book, and it does not affect the grade in any way. The angle of bend required to create a stress line simply cannot be done within the CGC holder. In addition, very high grade comic books can still exhibit minimal stress lines according to CGC’s official grading standards.

We do not consider this slight curve to be a mechanical error that requires reholdering. Still, we are always listening and want to serve our customers the best way we can. We have found that our next-largest well size does not exhibit this slight curve and have started to use that well in lieu of our smallest size.

We appreciate all of the feedback from our community, and we are grateful to be the hobby’s first choice for grading for nearly 25 years. Many of us are collectors too, and we care deeply about the services that we provide. If you have any comments, questions or concerns, please write to us at Service@CGCcomics.com or call or text us at +1-855-GRADE10.

A few questions for management…

If there is nothing wrong, why switch to the other inner wells?

How much do these more “pliable” wells bend before being shoved into the smaller space in a slab?

If there is enough of a problem to switch out inner wells going forward, should all of the current impacted books be submitted for reholders to get the larger inner well that will not bend the books?

For those that were already reholdered but just put back in the same “pliable” inner well a second time, should they be reholdered again to get the proper fix?

[MadGenius]

On 9/6/2024 at 2:50 PM, CGC Mike said:

Hi all

I have not read today's posts yet, as I am on vacation.  Here is a new statement that I have been given to post.

We have seen reports that some of the soft-plastic wells used inside of the CGC holder exhibit a curve when viewed from the side. After learning of this, we conducted an extensive review and found that the smallest well size, which is used for the thinnest comic books, is more pliable than other wells and, in some cases, will exhibit a slight curve.

Importantly, this curve does not cause any damage to the comic book, and it does not affect the grade in any way. The angle of bend required to create a stress line simply cannot be done within the CGC holder. In addition, very high grade comic books can still exhibit minimal stress lines according to CGC’s official grading standards.

We do not consider this slight curve to be a mechanical error that requires reholdering. Still, we are always listening and want to serve our customers the best way we can. We have found that our next-largest well size does not exhibit this slight curve and have started to use that well in lieu of our smallest size.

We appreciate all of the feedback from our community, and we are grateful to be the hobby’s first choice for grading for nearly 25 years. Many of us are collectors too, and we care deeply about the services that we provide. If you have any comments, questions or concerns, please write to us at Service@CGCcomics.com or call or text us at +1-855-GRADE10.

You gotta love how they frame minimizing the curve as doing a favor for their customers. "The curve is normal and great, but if you don't like it I guess we'll try to eliminate it." 

[electricprune]

On 9/6/2024 at 3:54 PM, lollyclown said:

In reference to your profile pic, they are hoping we pull the wool over our own eyes. ;)

Praise "Bob"!

It is pretty fitting in this circumstance, you’re right!

[Rich_Henn]

I have to respectfully disagree with CGC Mike.  I can show you multiple damaged books in the slabs, as can other facilitators as well as customers.  These curved wells are in fact, damaging the books.  I've seen it, clients have seen it, and it needs to be resolved.  It's happening slowly---slabs that I received back initially looked fine, but three weeks after the fact, you could see spine stress that was not there.  The pressure inside the slabs is causing applied pressure and there by stress to the spines.  The sky is blue, not green.  This is a relatively new phenomenon and looking back, it only seems to have started after CGC started sonicly sealing all four edges so tight that only a hammer could break them out.

 

Edited September 6 by Rich_Henn

[Rich_Henn]

One follow up that I would like to acknowledge----we are seeing it more prevalent on the newer comics.